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WBEN NewsRadio 930>Audio & Video on Demand>>Robert Shibley & Hal Morse - One Region Forward

Robert Shibley & Hal Morse - One Region Forward

Aug 17, 2014|

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Most every action that takes place is a ballot box to some degree talks about. Our region's future -- people sit in bars and I'm sure they can debate some of the big questions that we're gonna kick around this hour. What are some of the things that the region needs to do to move forward. If you had one magic wand and that's that's kind of an obvious one but. But I like people think about it for just moment if you had one thing that you really really wanted to see western new Yorker greater buffalo do. To survive as a region let me underline that we'll get that moment as a region what one thing would -- be what do we have to do do we maybe. Do things differently with transportation. Perhaps change some of the housing options out there. Some people could be a success that we need to look at. Our food system sort of way we consume energy. Or a lot of things about zoning you look at any town board and they talk about land use issues at the local level let's explode all of those. Too much bigger perspective let's talk about it in regional framework. And I'm not the only one doing -- there is a group out there that has decided to try and pull together. A vision for Western New York as a region area is greater buffalo as a region it's a collaborative effort called one region forward. It includes a lot of different groups some regional planning agencies the greater buffalo Niagara partnership -- is certainly involve little bit as well. We're gonna talk with two people that are connected to this. Jean Robert Shipley of the UB architecture school is here -- Morse is here from the greater buffalo. Niagara regional transportation council. The two of them together are part of this group called one region forward and if you'd like to join the conversation on the way we would love to have you. Guys thanks for coming on and I'm not sure which one of you would want to start but have I summarize it adequately is this an effort to try and figure out. What the big idea. Should be yes thank you David thanks for introduction this morning we appreciate the opportunity -- talk about what reaching forward. And I think your initial. Discussion topic is appropriate. It's about what we want to do going for this region. And what are the big ideas not necessarily in terms of very specific. One off types of initiatives. But where are we trying to -- as a region. -- we get there and what would be the right approach is to get us there so you're not saying build a stadium downtown you're saying look more broadly. At how people get from place to place or how we decide. The kind of housing we have. Right with better very reactive mode western or for several decades as an experienced Klein lost art manufacturing base and population. Now that's turning around and we're looking forward the next few decades in terms of how conditions change what resources to we have. How we work together to get the kind of results that we want terms of a stronger economy quality of life. Good services good transportation. At a reasonable price. By the way have the two voices you about here that's -- -- dean Robert Shipley is also hear from the UV architecture school. No doubt in the school you've got a book shelf somewhere with a lot of these kind of plans on an already got -- hypocrite there have been at least one or two that I can think. Maybe it could be -- reject we're looking at Erie and Niagara county there's 64 municipalities. To counties there's a few in Indian native American. And it. These locations right. So at some level you've -- -- say well out of that -- I think we kind of a 164 plans I'm not sure we animal but we think we can I got a lot of them we read them all. There's that there's a lot of energy yeah so does this effort then look at all of them and just take. -- common entities that the common thoughts or are you trying to build. A much more bigger universal process and -- that's a great question and it it's got two edges to that one has yet yeah that's part of that we're standing on the shoulders of a lot of good work it's been done over decades. But we're also. Openly critical and biting commentary about what you wish she'd seen instead. And both of those things are not so much to define the same thing everywhere as in universal but rather recognition of the subtle differences that -- across our municipalities. Inherent in my initial question the size of your book case. We've done this before we haven't done this before. Yet there have been studies but the implementation side it always seems to follow wait for one reason or another. It's sick it's -- common concern I think it's actually part of the mythology of our community we've been challenged economically now a lot of these planning work has had traction on the things the issue is whether it's coordinated in some way across the different powers and authorities federally state and local. Talk a little bit about the public involvement beyond the 64 towns and communities that he spoke out. Vary your holding hearings you're you're getting people to add what they'd like to see as well. It's beyond hearings stated this was an exciting process at the university put together where they actually designed. Yeah at a map of the two counties all the jurisdictions and it and they went around and posted. Events in many many communities over the summer nights weekends or people -- and had. Pieces if you will to distribute how we would like to grow. Opportunities to draw areas -- collect preserve transportation things they'd like to see from that we're able to work. Correctly with the public let them sit down. And put those maps together trying to get some common approaches and part of the reason we're talking about this now as I understand there's an ongoing survey that expires at the end of August. It will never expire -- -- continuing to survey right now at website. Wonders can forward you are able to take surveys. Take some text initiatives. Constantly provide us more information -- continue to grow -- -- there -- -- -- and -- drag go ahead. What if you if you put numbers to it -- well over 3000 people have their fingerprints on this and in addition to that we've been to every fare and -- folk festival across the region for the last two years. The scenario workshops or how described were incredibly central part of what you keep what you want a change in your region where just heard where are we doing well. And then there's a huge exercising text -- forward where we're asking questions on an ongoing basis through the -- -- There's photo Bush's campaign and advice people who take pictures of what they like and what they hate him and what would you like to do about either one. All of that comes together to give us a kind of pretty broad picture of public aspiration for a region so America than white and I notes only draft report at this point what we found what do we want what do we need to do. That is as you pointed out introduction there's five core areas of engagement right now and and certainly the economy is huge it's one of them we wanna be a great place to live and with a thriving economy and they're gonna do that we think through a smarter approach to land use ended. That kind of work what does that mean a smarter person so if you think about. Drawing -- land use plan of 64 municipalities. In one drawn. And then you look at let Edwards and hence we did that and then say did you do that on purpose. Where are those compatible cells and where the things that are actually driving the cost of -- -- services up and can we be smarter about that can we do the math. And I think some of that and this this touches on another area of the Big Five ideas some of that is certainly linked to transportation. You look at the business development along transit road and I I recall of business first study a couple of years back into that. And lo and behold traffic is high along transit low road. And lo and behold business development -- -- along -- wrote that to come together so you're talking efficient land use you also than have to look at transportation. Indeed transportation is is a precursor to development and really supports it also is a major impact on the cost of services to government. He talked but transfer road and in his area of Linear development we commissioned a separate study that looked at value per acre and looked at the they called transit first transit so within the the development Chad if you will of the light rail system vs the development showed -- transit road. Light rail system because of its density of development actually produced a much higher value breaker. So again that's less cost of services and more value for local government. I think the rap on our current public transportation system certainly the light rail more than more than the bus system. It's tax -- where people will he say that. You look at yet next one end of downtown to the other end of downtown. But if I'm out in Orchard Park -- Tora. I can't hop on a rail and had downtown Islamic do you beat north campus can't hop -- -- -- and had downtown is -- kind of thing you're looking at. Yes of course -- looking for several decades. What kind of transportation services do we need how we effectively provide that either spies -- current types of service or services are yet emerging. But also how we pay for those kinds of things and again if you look at. The way we have developed. The lower density types of ladies have made it very difficult and very expensive to provide public transportation services explained we we put parking lots outside -- malls basically. Is that what -- say yes. It's easier to drive to place and walk into the place than it is to maybe use public transit. But also we've developed in certain locations -- -- very low density where. If you would look at the number of people and actually want to bust up a whopper transit -- very much lower and really almost. Very difficult right kind of service. 8030930s or number were kicking around this whole planning idea of one region forward. They have come up with a draft report five big ideas to help the region -- if he'd like to get in on the conversation we would -- -- have you already touched on two of them. The idea that a thriving economy and efficient land use need to push forward. You just -- -- with a greater buffalo Niagara transportation. I regional transit helped me what's the the title. Greater buffalo Niagara regional transportation council okay. They have -- the transportation but there there are other parts of this equation -- -- you at home would love to chime in and and tell us what you think what does that we do need to move itself forward housing is part of that you've that. A once. Heard a series of presentations on housing as education policy. That where you settle and who sits next year and what their -- levels are in school determines the quality going back to the -- proceeded to -- And I think one -- things we're looking at as one of the range of choices and housing types that we offer. And art is it a just and equitable distribution and war and how good is it is it is a good enough to really make us strive as a region are you saying for the interest of diversity we need to put housing projects and Clarence -- Well I think and one of the issues is is it wherever possible we should never -- pockets of poverty in terms of social housing them and -- another but we should always understand that we're -- on the planet together -- -- figure out how to live and in mixed -- on -- as with all kinds of choices a great goal but do you ever -- you really happening I see happening all over the United States and more and more so in our urban cities what we're seeing how does that work quite well give -- example of the way he -- being -- -- -- -- to Pike Place Market Seattle. And you can buy a price -- a cup of coffee or two dollar and fifty cent cup of coffee in the same block he got million dollar condominiums next a single room occupancy units. And is one of the highest at trafficked tourist destinations in the country and that. Occurs why because they have decided to make it work order -- involved they begin to understand the value of diversity mean diversity plays out so positively with the since so many different -- why wouldn't we embrace it and see how we can make a better economy with a better density of living environment you think our downtown is doing that I think it is I think we've got a ways to go yet we're not there completely but we see ourselves starting to bring. A broader mix of uses into the residential housing -- that's occupying downtown now. A lot of I think the development that this stereotypical about whether it's the attention at these are the lofts downtown. And that kind of person that can afford public housing is not a movement will. Well that would the way we make them now perhaps not we're been working on the higher end of that market when we know that the middle and lower end of the market is where that it's deeper and deeper market is. When we start to fill those and when we start to really understand the balances shoulder neighborhoods you can get a very different composition of population count. 8030930s. -- number were talking about the five big ideas for Western New York one region forward dot org. Hal Morris is here that was dean Robert -- with the -- school let's let's look at and this this life uninteresting in the draft report. We -- you talked about land use and economy transportation certainly on the table housing on the table. What do you mean in the draft report when you say strengthen our food systems for healthier population and economy. The economy part I think I understand because if people are growing food it's it's more money coming into the area but what about the the idea of strengthening our food system. What do you mean well let me take a shot at that -- whole concept has been developed called food desert. There really do this with -- locations for instance in in buffalo where you are where -- don't have easy access to food transportation systems as we just testament teaches there. And that corner stores aren't delivering fresh apples and fresh -- -- recipes each -- might have occasional farmer's market but it doesn't have a -- precisely so at some level he can you don't have access so access is important the second component of that is to really start to work -- -- of a broader look at things like climate change and other dynamics -- really wanna make sure we always have farm to table accepts complete impunity can get the food where it needs to be and where the population centers -- It's almost that simple. There is a burgeoning urban farming movement and some little pockets of these side is that what you're talking about encouraging there wasn't more than that it's way more than that that that's an important part there's a kind of self sufficiency -- and that that that adds value to the access to good healthy food but we really are looking at how we get to follow food from the farm to the table. In inefficient and ineffective and again if we're talking regionally this is Erie and Niagara counties. Yes -- Colombian territory there's a lot of farms yet. That's an important component -- these topics are really work together and if you look at the economic development -- In a -- cultures and number two industry in New York State we have a wealth of agriculture in this region. How can we protect agricultural lands and encourage their further development and distribution of their products. I would rank to shoehorn all these five big ideas before commercial break one more ago -- taking some phone calls. What do you mean when you say conserve energy promote renewables and prepare for climate change. It exactly that if I don't get to that there's that -- that kind of an ongoing if it were conserving more energy in greater buffalo. Then they are Asians and my two schools Alabama. I we've been thriving more as a region. But I -- I would go another direction with that if we look at the notion that we're gonna do the renewable energy economy in the United States and we par. Buffalo has a strong role to play for increases in ourselves and now we're a much better positioned to capitalize on that and grow jobs and capacity with that. -- -- We're late for -- break we're gonna take that and -- the phone calls after this. Hell -- here also dean Robert simply from the B school of architecture and planning and they are doing some plants. It's called the one region forward dot org group and we'll be talking more about this in the program unfolds more to come it's hard and his radio 930 WB yen. It's hard line on this radio 930 WVU and this is Dave -- Dean Robert Shipley is here from the UV school of architecture and planning -- Morris also hear from the buffalo Niagara regional transportation council. We're talking about. I don't minimized by just saying it's planning effort. We're talking about this whole idea of one region forward it's a collaborative effort to look at not only what has been done in regional planning but also I guess. To get the ideas and figure out where we want to go if you'd like to join the conversation we'd love to have you aboard 803 on 930s and number. Enough time before the news brief break to squeeze in one call -- and drew in buffalo if need be we can hold John over. Or we can know just hopped back on hold and bring on the other side either one your choice. OK well let Hillary get here. You know I don't and certainly your guests are very well executed and well meaning that. We're we're a little ahead of ourselves. -- that's not much planning really gonna change what happens -- more market conditions. And don't -- pretty ample. You know anybody complain -- in its -- -- at a market taking care. Our attorneys initially started to see you terminated it and people who want to move down there. He can change all the -- a lot cheat all the go to line on the whole bunch of projects. Bring people down there who don't Peter can't -- -- -- there you'll change the whole hallmark. And that's asserting that -- I think we have a problem recently and that we're trying to do too many things. Rules and laws and many politicians. Try to make things happen in in my her out in the union are small little world. And maybe that's problems relating to market kind of for itself. All right those are great questions and we don't have time to get the answers to him before the newscasts on -- popped you on hold while rays began on the other side. Can planning do it what kind of plans should we have more to come it's hard life and is ready at 930 WB yen. It's hard line on news radio 930 WP here and good morning this -- evo. What 5612. Half a thousand things as the -- need to survive to thrive even as a region. It's part of the things that have been kicked around by a planning effort called one region forward dot org. And they not only are trying to look at all the plants that are on the shelf with some of the ideas that are percolating up from the bottom of people. And we have two of their principles you with us technical calls now Robert Shipley dean of the school of architecture and planning and UB. And also -- Morse from the buffalo Niagara regional transportation council. If you have an idea for the region and who hasn't set a Byron and kick this one around. What would you love to see the region do or B 8030930. The number before the break we had drew in buffalo on the line he's back with us now. Drew is we can summarize you're saying that planning is great but really can't do it because the market's gonna go where it's gonna go. And do what it's gonna do. I mean he could -- with what's been happening is that can come out Oreo line. Lower launch and that it's more libertarian. Now deemed Shipley you you work at the school of architecture and planning you've dedicated his career to planning. I bet you would say that planning still has a role here. I first of lying through his right planning as a dog doesn't hunt -- well in western new York and we got lots of history tells us that things have gone so slow for so long. Maybe what we need to do is figure out ways to get out of the way the market in some fashion and so a man. Where we can but let's not fool ourselves. Rocco would kill for the continuation of these contracts -- -- determining exactly who presided and before that which -- aggressive again right on the money that he wants predictability he wants clarity he wants that. Tax credit formulations related to historic properties that allow preservation to proceed he wants that. Code work. To dictate cannot be 12100 pages to have to wade through and and the fact that the green couldn't have -- 300 simplifies things so. All of that is fruits of planning that simplify and make more predictable. The market dynamics that we need if if an archer is trying to shoot a bird out of the air he needs to know where the birds going to be not sure that where the -- is right now yeah he's a player. Is that what this decree Cody and I actually loosen things up instead and making them more strict it's what the neighborhood. They see the character the neighborhood dictate the new development yeah it's loosening banks not making them overly rigid. We agree with you completely that's precisely what it is and that's what good planning should always do but there is effective drew I appreciate your call because you raising -- dichotomy there. How can you plan. Without having restrictive rules. As zoning is planning and that's that's a rule. When you say simplified planning. I need to understand a little more about what that is. Entered into yet to you know absolutely right your turn to drew I don't know if you're a well at twelve. Hundred pages of 300 pages of simplifying planning that's that's a that's a green code it's really tied to the experience of people in the city that character of their neighborhoods and -- saying. Pay attention to the form that character and the use it together don't just controlled by use that's arbitrary. And you draft report right now we've we've touched on this before the news -- that includes five big ideas you're almost saying. This is where we wanted to go as opposed to this is how we're gonna get there. While yeah I think it part of the deal here is to paint the target in performance terms and recognize to go but it -- to the libertarian. Conservation. Do it to go away to allow the communities -- then decide how best to respond to the performance you want one performance we don't want as our municipalities. Able to provide the level of service it's reasonable for them to be able to provide the economy is right now don't do that because the way we do land use I think it takes. Move -- objection to the planning process is the top down nature and all health talk about the way this -- -- from the bottom up. The idea that there are people involved in your effort that can come up with basic idea something that can move this process forward without. Rules and regulations from on high nine Moses. Thank you very much -- we have kind of follow over the years especially in Western New York. Assume that there would be government. Program or project that would transform us or be the big ball. What we've come to realize is that again as doctor Shipley said if we are able to paint that target and turn people loose for achievement will get much better success. And we saw recently a citizen in the village of a Williams build that on her own after -- being involved in one region forward and being a citizen. Champion for change came up with a signage program. Two really turn around the downtown part of the village -- Williams though again and brought to the mayor was able to. Bring that forward and was very well received since he had this gold she had participated year process and then took it to the town -- yourself and understood. Exactly what what what she wanted to see happen. Understood why there was value in it understood some of the technical dynamics from being involved in this process and some of the planning school approach. And is able to bring -- forward and achieve some success. And so ever so briefly tell me how she did that you guys to some degree training people to do this right right. There we run something we call us at our community planning schooler citizens planning school. And it it's really a misnomer because we're learning as much from the community it's coming to it as we are giving to it but we bring best practices and things learned from elsewhere. We'd situation that in local circumstance so people like that could come forward saying I wanna do something let's think through how to get it done through the regulatory system. And at the same time we learn which parts of the -- her sister are dysfunctional and should go away 8030930s. -- number and -- Cheektowaga thanks for holding. Well yeah we have a lot of what development are -- we have to do sports story when and across from Galileo Molly got a Wal-Mart going an up -- when avenue. And give up to it kind of bus service. But the Williams busters don't buses and a weakened so clear cut deal in robust. And we have to walk from which William -- wrote to get take out Ramallah and sports store -- some commit to some of the putting transportation back in the suburbs but Serb. You know again this comes back to how we how we developed -- gonna pay for services. The if you look at an FDA and public transportation services in general there is no new part of revenue so basically you need to provide levels transportation. As the as we increasingly. It's have lower densities and ability to provide that. And the costs are just such that it is difficult and I I know I'm very much. Understand the dilemma of trying to provide those kinds of services but at what cost and who could pay. Need transportation B market driven or should be is subsidized service here in your book. Well clearly you have to be some sort of public subsidy of transportation services if you're able to provide services -- a reasonable cause that people can afford and utilize. But again it comes back to can we make that as effective as possible and most efficient. Keep those costs down and provide as much -- we can't -- available resources stand thanks for waiting it's your turn now hi. Well good morning. I can make a projection and when you start planning. Everyone can take a ride. Through Toronto. Who's the -- section. To -- who along lakeshore boulevard and she gave -- apple planned this skyscrapers to her boost -- CN tower. He didn't drive. You name it this is like Toronto is growing people are actually moving into -- I'm not leaving it. Like -- of Rochester and buffalo they have done something right and it's working its growing by leaps and bounds. Got Sibley and those you were nodding your head that but I it's. It's a testimony for planning that's useful stand thank you. I think I do think that that Toronto on its head and engine. Though wave of immigration and immigration policies that brought them to a position of a lesser than buffalo to substantially more than buffalo. Was a function of some of the public policy put in place I also planned I used the analogy earlier that it for bird is flying through there and watch them with an arrow you. You should obviously it's going to be instill what is. Toronto was a flying bird. There was a time when Buffalo's -- was just sitting on the -- not moving might have been an easier target plan for but you didn't have the idea of progress going. Again a number of public policies made the Toronto planning process work. That some really enlightened leadership and a very strong citizen component in advocacy from the waterfront as we are now experiencing. War -- starting to come back. That's a good thing that is not the only thing -- I was over apps and what else do you like you know if I wanted one thing based on your introduction to the show. It would be stopped thinking any one thing we'll do it. Perfect that these things are all connected and and some of it requires government intervention in infrastructure. The idea that we subsidized transit when it's a bus or train and don't when it's a road is silly of course -- subsidized in one form or another and we need to understand and do the math associated with the settlement patterns we aspire to. This my bigger point do we kept by the five big ideas that right now. Are part of one region forwards draft plan and it's something that still evolving they're still getting public comment done. -- five big ideas now -- create great places in the thriving economy proficient land use and others who want a good economy and better. Better better planning. Connecting -- places by expanding and diversifying our transportation options providing better housing choices in neighborhoods that are great places to live. Strengthening our food system for healthier population and economy and conserving energy from promoting renewables and prepare for the impacts of climate change. Five you can pick just one -- and they're all connected it could get any the other four through anyone. Eight at 30930s a number after the break we'll take a couple of more phone calls if you're in there. And we'll also talk about where this project this whole idea goes after this. It's hard line on news radio 930. You know we're talking about this effort this whole idea of one region forward. They have a draft report looking at the five things that the region needs. We don't have time to summarize all of -- we've certainly done a little bit of that during the program here. If you'd like more information in the next fifteen minutes we're gonna put it up at WB and a com have the draft report there. You're looking around the entire website you don't know where exactly it is just had to hit to get it now -- bottom of any page right there on the left it to get it now button. And you'll see a list of links one of them I'll make sure is up there again about fifteen minutes of the programs on -- I'll hop on that. -- be to the one region forward dot org site they haven't draft plan they're looking at the things that the region needs to succeed. Glow not globally but I guess regionally not just okay what -- store and he's not just what downtown buffalo needs. But pretty much all of Erie and Niagara as one region moving forward. Talk a little bit about where it goes next we have. Gene Roberts certainly hear from the school of architecture and planning UV also -- Morse from the buffalo Niagara regional transportation council. This effort. Eventually morphed into a book on a bookshelf does this -- eventually. Continue in some form that keeps people involved. What happens after all this talk. How I think if you talk a little bit to steering committee construction and then I'll take it from. Right currently this efforts that by steering committee of 26 different individuals representing government agencies. And private sector around two counties. After this plan is complete they will stick together and for the most part governments on board here. Yes -- and we are ordered the major objectives and again we have not specified specific projects. -- decisions to be made but again achieved a framework which now. Going forward we could use this distributed decision making process if you will the -- talk about. So if you can imagine 64 municipalities. We vast land use decisions in them -- it's their job you're not telling any individual zoning -- what to do but we can give them the tools to assess. And financials. Appropriateness of the decision ecological appropriateness of the decisions that kind of human and social appropriateness decisions of those tools. Give them an ability to make better decisions do you think it's a process that's lacking during the break we talked ever so briefly about. All this talk of a stadium -- for the Buffalo Bills. And I think in that discussion. The idea process may be according -- falls out the idea that we're trying to to figure out what to do without the math. Is that the general approach that this region does you don't. Stadiums are driven by it and your transportation network they're driven by the economy area they're driven by what happens when you put it beached whale and large metropolitan area you've got -- you've got to barrier wall to traverse it changes the dynamics of -- So where you put it matters and planning brings the discipline of of of that processed there do we plan enough well. Never I know your -- and here is the issue the issue is it is who is whether we plan well enough. We probably planned too much of the wrong things. And and implement too many of the wrong things has been our history. We built -- highway system based I'm planning between us and our water. For example. Because at that time that was built the priority wasn't excess water for a that's correct that if you ask any citizen today with the priority should be back to Toronto its access to the water so again this -- one region forward idea. -- the goals first and then make. The projects fit that instead of turning it upside down I kind of like the idea scorecards and they're only as good this metrics -- go into the score so we're reform written document it's really predicated on the performance of the region and letting us do continued sort of mid process checks side by side project by project in the municipalities where the power and authority exists and -- more -- the time to you. That you're about system. -- hero in the -- strategy prosperity that exists in the region now expect few key industries that will be. Report in the future Western Europe and then what are projects and talk with collectively invest and make them strong the whole. Regional economic development council -- governors put down through through Howard's MPs and -- about the you be exactly okay. Where is it what's the timetable but what happens next. We expect to have the tactical components of this finished up within the next six months. And on the steering committee that mentioned we'll stay together and begin to assemble this scorecard. Begin to look at how we create a process that is not. Is that. Speak is not -- some but will allow for as -- sort of distributed decision making process. We can work with local government the private sector and agencies to develop the kinds of projects and get the results we want. And in terms of the public involvement component the citizen planning school might be the best approach to that we are finished with a contract of work we've had 200 people moved through that program twenty citizen champions building separate programs in -- projects internal to their place. Now what happens is that rolls back into the university and we'll do it again as part of the normal course spoke with free access to -- champions and citizen planners. And in that fashion we can continue to develop projects in the communities with the people who -- with those -- and are more classes -- you can still sign on -- they can sign on board are on the web based offering most any time that's available through the website -- they also once a year in in every spring will run for Saturday's that are concentrated faced -- facing calendars and will -- citizens champions to meet with technical support teams to help them craft projects for their -- there -- neighborhoods and communities if someone's going to step up and do this do they. Need to have. A fire in the belly -- the lady mentioned earlier in Williams felt. Was specifically concerned about traffic if she brought that it to the table and talked about the walk ability of village do I need to have an issue or can I just going. Say this sounds cool. We got some of both them and many who recognize that it's -- it's a complicated mix of things that have to be dealt with and so they look for plans to deal with their whole neighborhoods. We have others who were just you know I just -- -- community gardens that's how I do that. And we helped them with both. Okay very good if people want more information again probably next fifteen minutes or so it's gonna take its estimated -- to get up that but the draft report is really interest thing. It includes a lot of things that we've been talking about this this our. The five big ideas for a greater buffalo Niagara. Create great places diving economy efficient land use. Connector places by expanding and diversifying transportation. Strengthen our food systems for healthier population and economy provide better housing choices in neighborhoods. And conserve energy can get more information all of this online our website WB and dot com just -- to get it now button.

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