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Race & Education: Prof. Peter Yacobucci & George Arthur

Apr 27, 2014|

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And it seemed as if there has been a lot of discussion about race this week so we're going to delve into the topic. In depth in a lot of different ways coming up in just a little bit -- have George Arthur with us ready to take your calls starting around 1030. George is a former president of the buffalo common council he is a leader of the NAACP locally and here's the interesting part. Back in the day when buffalo was under -- desegregation. Order for his schools. George was the plaintiffs that filed that suit he's basically the one that brought it forward and said we need to desegregate the schools now here we are. Some twenty odd years later the -- order has been lifted. But it turns out that again this week there is a lot of discussion about race and education. They talked about it at the Supreme Court. During a decision about Michigan and affirmative action policies college. It's also come up in discussion of the local school board races involving neighborhood schools and desegregation there. So there is a whole bunch to get to in that regard. Later in the program will also try to who have a segment on the numbers coming in for Governor Cuomo yes his popularity is like it's slipping in just a little bit. And again there's another poll this week that shows the vulnerability. On his left flank not to the point that rob best arena will win the governor's race but. Enough that it shows something is moving there and look at that as well I wanted to start it all out though by talking with Peter Jacobsen chief from buffalo state college. He studies the Supreme Court. He's someone who has really look quite a bit at this entire decision that came down earlier this week. On Tuesday the Supreme Court ruling that the Michigan University of Michigan. But does have the right. In certain states to ban affirmative action it's not a full band throughout the nation but states' rights come to play. Doctor -- -- thanks for joining us. You you watch the Supreme Court often I know you were recently even down they're not for this case peripheral another one to see the oral arguments. -- Are out. Maybe three of our IP or. And talk to me about why this is of such interest you. -- the great record written start -- -- Supreme Court stellar but I more and more interest in that series of policy which in my original focus on the role -- -- played in determining how deep in the United States. Talk and focus more and more on the decision of the -- court. Talk about this particular ruling what did they say in regards to affirmative action. Well at that isn't that other pretty simple case it was about. The state of Michigan had a ballot initiative that -- this state from using. And racial. Information on determining any public -- -- -- so affirmative action essentially. Banned in Michigan and they they -- their case before the court was. Could that ban was standing equal protection clause of the US constitution. And that decision that was rendered by the court -- a 62 decision one of the justices recused herself be precious. And I'll earlier that the case. I'm saying that the state does have the rights. -- an affirmative actually it did not violate the equal protection. Did they look at. Race Bruce say always a Mormon states rights kind of issue. Well -- -- it as it -- argued before record it was partly that's. That's states rights issue what you read the opinion in the -- -- -- in the case. It became very much important and and justices are concerned about the implications rates. It seems like more and more lately if the question is can states that the that the that the the answer comes back yes State's camp. Yet that's exactly -- of course moved in the last decade. Very strongly. Approach states it was that -- movement that led by the former Chief Justice William Rehnquist. But it certainly got picked up by. Cart Chief Justice John Roberts who was. Well they reckless Clark back before during the court. Talk a little bit about those entrances and especially I know the dissent from justice Sotomayor was interesting. What what they run out. Then that's their decision especially -- And it. The State's right issue. That it what concerns affirmative action as the court has continued most -- decision rendered back in 2007. Does suggest more strongly with all the each passing year that any use of race in determining a public policy and administration benefits -- of policy. The unconstitutional. That concept that. It is against a long history of using affirmative action to alleviate racial disparities in the United States. And that that justice. That Richard justice is that that battled each other and her opinions. First justice. Sotomayor. -- the first Hispanic on the court wrote a very long very extensively. Our researcher written. Dissent saying that no races and important parts. Of public policy and that that the affirmative action programs based on race. Change America for the better. And then there -- Estrada -- that one page concurrence by the Chief Justice which is a rarity those normally happen. In which he took exception of the way is our it was characterized by a justice Sotomayor. Did she cross a line and make it personal in some regards. Yes and -- that. You know personally I mean -- and I think venture on affirmative action. And so especially -- justice like Sotomayor actually stated in her. Or her. -- -- But you wouldn't be where she was -- -- -- actually you wouldn't gotten a chance that she thinks she. A -- because of affirmative action professor Roberts to the position back in about 1000. When he first joined the court but look in the way to end racial discrimination in the United States. And racial discrimination that statement that he made at the end of one of the opinion. And that I -- -- the conservative wing of the court ever since then collapsed six years. As others as a wave of getting rid of further action -- constitution in the Supreme Court and the defenders of affirmative action have become more. Strident in saying no that there's this is not the right way. To interpret the constitution. Talk a little bit more about equal protection under the law and the the justification of that gives the one side that says. We need protect affirmative action. Well. -- It justices genocide case many different route one and it just look at taxes. Of that word that they are looking at you look at the equal protection argument fourteenth amendment of the constitution. -- From that. That you can't discriminate based there's no mention and that what you indiscriminate at race for the beneficiaries and however if you look at the intent of a longer individual that wrote that document into -- situation after the civil war. They have a tremendous number of racial opt out of action program right after the war. That's freed slaves both from the opera and and -- American then. I minorities in the north. So it's not clear answer comes out of the substitution. And so as a result you've had to battle over the last well over a century now what they're equal protection ought to. Specifically -- and to blow onto a single sentence that equal protection there's been interpreted by the court for about fifty years and. Similarly situated individuals must be treated similar that -- But that means well what does it mean to be similarly situated and the opponents of -- and actually -- individuals. Then. Cap because of their race and hiring and admissions to higher education. And other -- that out I'll be within. The country and set bet -- editor welcome that they -- it and it different situations so therefore. A racially. Racially. Discriminatory. Policy. Is constitutional. Is the fact that the Michigan case dealt with education. Different is that a different arena or they just look at race in public life in general. Now is that it's a different arena. That court has different levels -- when he depending on what it. The public policy is. And traditionally. The court has allowed schools to essentially adopt their own admission per gram as -- that it. -- certainly say we will allow end you know 20% of class must be racial minority -- -- -- and it was declared unconstitutional. In 1970. Bet that if a school or the university. Public university which you consider an applicant's race among other factors. But applicant's application. And a court always said that's okay. A year go to court and -- case accessed -- -- at what we're gonna look at those cases a little more strongly ordered me a little more strict. I'm -- states. Doctor -- Now that's working its -- -- What they mean by or stricter they're not explicitly decades. There's this civil that was released this scene indicate that the court and a look. With them very very. Typical land that goes policies and and it's likely that they were not any policy down there and any other racial discrimination. To what degree is this part of a broader debate. I think of whenever it justices are up for confirmation there's always the analogy put forth. That a justice should be like an umpire. Judging based on technical issues once the ball in the strike zone. Was the player tagged out rather than caring about the broader outcome of the game. Is it a split now between Sotomayor saying we we have to care about the outcome of the game. And the rest of them saying no this is something we just Neitzel got on the technical merits. I know I think. I think that analogy which is used by chief Justice Roberts in its nominating. Or operation -- when he McArthur court. Specifically in an appropriate analogy. That baseball as rules there are steps. That -- says that court interpreting the constitution which means they are setting the rules themselves. So it's it's. It's just not an appropriate out is that outlook is -- -- balls or strikes. That can make you know more more and I would be of course it's a pop balls and strikes but there is no strikes. It's up to each justice which way they want to create you know they're on strike -- whether conservative or liberal. So he can't necessarily say -- this with a case of judicial activism. Inherited. I like I think what's been happening in the last decade it's which we either side -- -- it arguing that -- and they say -- an outside rather have judicial activist insurer and and and has spent at a that's there has been an aggressive move by the conservative wing on the court joined by Anthony -- -- it -- better member of the court. To push back pretty aggressively about against federal government powers. In the last decade since it's essentially Chief Justice. Roberts joined the court. So let go -- I know this this court become very activist. And it conservative manner this late conservatives. And fifteen years ago. What aptly describe the court and activists in a more liberal and. What are the limits of this ruling will -- spawn. Other cases similar debate on the road. I'll -- this is certainly well because what that ruling that. It's that and state that wishes you can't ban that jurisdiction. You race in any way. So I have public I'll look for second now why do every -- states. And the question panic well what about what about localities what about it. What it a city school district such as buffalo. Which is saying don't we we're not consider race and well in the distribution of our students. -- -- consideration golf and the distribution of -- scholarships or edit or any other public policy. That's mrs. one step as we move a lot of number of steps and I would be very shocked. It's next year and -- not completed -- yet for next year. In we got another case right along this avenue. Ruling that a permanent action. So there are as similar things lightly in the pipeline. Yet culture and any time -- decision rendered by the court. Our individual car immediately searching. Legal land it looking for other cases at a lower level that they and then used to make an argument before a court to put whatever. Policy restriction that they are looking forward so. -- the lawyers just like that it was picked out. That's the case that we can move forward and try and bring it up to the Supreme Court hopefully get this or drink -- And a lot of Brothers Harrison briefly just mentioned buffalo public schools and in the segment after you're here we're going to be talking about. Race and education quite a bit Georgia Padilla plaintiff in the buffalo desegregation case will be here. In a general sense doesn't district are there other rulings. Does -- district. Get the right to include race in there all over all education policy. And I know it's a pretty broad twelve but it helps a -- Robert -- educational and which is coming up this six year. Anniversary coming up or shortly. The court and that ruling of course knocked out. Segregation. But -- a question about -- we declare segregation unconstitutional. How quickly we have to be there what Luke -- F he used to be -- that we. And I caught up on the cases -- mandatory bought at a lot of protest going out so. Who oversees that and that this Supreme Court. During the heyday in the sixties and then early -- -- well working overseas that we don't trust state and local governments to do it. And that has -- and and it's it's put a curtain on the court and it's and it's certainly not a well accepted by the public. So the question becomes. And you go back to racially segregated neighborhood school. Segregated as in we're gonna say only wait -- go to this -- only -- in this world instead of this -- -- you have a school. Well and a neighborhood that's that's 95%. White and the neighborhood right next to it. -- 9% black. And you put school look at each other district so that once -- 9% black one's vote and 5% white. And that's a question that as a bank completely answered by the court. And we'll see an end up a fight I'm sure. Mr. there's about them and it but those schools is going right now others of push. And -- -- members school district to go back to a neighborhood schooling program in which every neighbor but whatever its own school. And I of course were segregated schools based rates also all cities are segregated outraged by just presidential choice. And it's a segregation there right now would be allowed by law. Right it would be voted its flood area it's because. If you do it based stab at a lot of there was not -- government adopted. Racial distribution program meaning that. All blacks but that's always -- in this book irrespective of where they live. Senators are actually it's but -- but reality is that because what went at that that's the case. Today and the distribution of that's it's coming from. The government in lot of money that they per pupil teacher and -- rest is that also equally distributed. And that sort of court as that last. Clear and it waited eight adopted most of the group. All right great step Peter thanks for joining us. Next after the newscast and we currently for the brick and get the news after that. But -- coming up next we've got George Arthur here. Former buffalo City Council president also the man behind the plaintiff in Buffalo's school desegregation case. Years -- years ago they were under federal ordered desegregate. About 45 years ago that order was lifted but now as you heard Peter say there is a huge discussion. Especially some of the school board race is about neighborhood schools and a lot of the discussion in these days looks at the whole idea of whether or not. That's kind of another case of segregation. -- get into that will kick around the Michigan ruling an affirmative action to. George Arthur also a member of the board of the NAACP. A lot to come including your phone calls -- three on 930 its -- on the news after the marshals. I. This is Bob Brinker listen for money talks delving in to race this morning. 8030930s. -- a number of along the way you'd like to get in on the conversation we would love to have you there. George Arthur is here former president of the buffalo City Council and certainly keen political observer in that regard. But especially interesting to note he is also the plaintiff way back when. In Buffalo's desegregation. Case against the buffalo schools George I hear you laughing already out I'm not trying to make yet to be. An old guy but I'm making out to be a guy who has seen it when it happened. -- You go -- directly. And that its recent I was not only a plaintive but I it was a defended as this thing -- Because of your role with the City Council. Okay. Let's set the stage in 1976. Desegregation ruling from the federal courts reaffirmed again in 1977. Basically saying that the buffalo school system. Needed to -- itself. Ten years later the judge judge curtain lifted the ruling saying okay this city has done a good enough job. That basically they don't need to be under federal supervision anymore. I wanna read an article from the New York Times and we'll get into our discussion. This is dated 1985. Four years after federal judge ordered forced -- -- rather the buffalo public schools have become considered a national model of integration. Of the 531 school. Integration has worked school officials sold integration which is about four and buffalo which is about 40% black. By promising a better school waiting for children at the end of the bus right. OK now we flash forward and again there are a lot of racial issues talk about the -- the -- the program but I I wanna kick it off specifically with schools with flash forward. There are a whole bunch of folks on the school board ballot talking once again. About neighborhood schools and they're doing it at a time when several national studies are showing that New York State in general and buffalo in particular. Are really really segregated in their school system now. How do you solve this what do you do. Well the abdicated. You've got to remember him in the seventies we hit the leadership we really heads. Outstanding leadership. On the fiscal he had achievement. Joseph McCarty. Who were there. The summer before the -- took place. They've worked with the parents they administered groove that you community means Hugo. He of these -- what is it that's what neighborhood took the other may move toward the overcame any of the fears is that was. Something at the end of the bus ride. That is now all been destroyed. It's been destroyed in in February is our schools you as you say it has become. Segregated again. We you have charter schools well. How McCourt but you're taking away form the public school system is draining money. You have all the holes they -- don't have good leadership. That we had been. Vowed that we -- dead and you'll also hear it in a lot of people may disagree with me but I think that these. -- -- -- I think was excellent he was the right person at the right time in the right place. You know formal -- in a lot of the credit that we he would normally is that magnet schools and the only game -- and able to -- Was it wasn't just these surprise didn't work these everybody was working together. But if if desegregation. Was good because it created quality schools. And we argue. That a return to neighborhood schools would bring about the kind of quality that would make current segregation. -- -- In its audience that the the there's been a world record white flight sciences school systems. By cultural institutions. Are extremely important to a good. Young families look at what the school system had to offer it look at what those cultural institutions says -- When -- go to advocate gene in people who were moving and businesses and wanna move it to a city take a look at polls polls. The C what is what that -- And we have not paid to shifted to our school system the way that we shares. You know it's it's it's sad that the border. Or into you know about money in of the names of the dead. Hard to educate in how does -- make our schools but try to. There's not too worried that they used to -- Do you think that. Discussion of race is appropriate at the buffalo schools. A lot of people of look to what's going on looked at some of the dysfunction. And basically you have. Two camps you have black women and white men who disagree on a lot of issues and I'm wondering if race is at the root of the disagreement in Iraq. I think -- money. I think I think -- money because you can't build some members of the school board school who favor. Charter school. He's been camped. They're working in the best interest of the public school system. In the charter school system at it and think tanks because they're competing with each of them they're competing for money. They're competing for was for the student body and see you know that the that that's one of defectors is six. Racist and into work. There's no question about it. But if charter schools or something that they can all equally compete for. I eventually does that not solve the desegregate at the segregation problem now. It doesn't it doesn't mean people try to schoolchildren meant every. You have to remember that when we were under court order. There was certain -- that they -- in enough to try to balance the schools between blanket right. So that you know that there was some bouncy that the court did in the court ordered. He and also that the flooding that one wicket. That's happening Tuesday. And you have rebuild schools that is developing news saying well we don't want. You know these kids of this they would be and isn't this school children in hand in. In our neighborhood. And is in building up old brick walls again. And that's hurting the school that's hurting. The school system -- and the board members and arguing that is that the -- could probably resolve that problem. You know I think that would -- to beat -- -- At a time when different candidates are out there campaigning I don't want you to necessarily. Endorse someone here on the air but talk to me a little bit about the solution what then do they do. Yeah it has -- have candidates there who who never. Head into a debacle school system you have candidates some -- -- to know enough about opposites. Everybody holiday article on you know -- And and in improved something that they -- Norton. He had -- Hussein -- the school system dislike of business it's not like of this is that the school system in this altogether different. And though is that becomes one is that while you can't see in this situation. You Hannity -- superintendent. What sort of work is only been here a short period of time. And you have everybody nobody uses. Supporting more or helping her you have a lot of money that's being spent and paid to -- distinguished educator. Who supposed to come out would -- help improve the apostles who was nobody has seen or heard from or any of the report. She doesn't report to that is that the board here. Can report to somebody in Albany and who is that trickled down from -- here. Derek not your problem there. -- -- you have a member of the board of regents who was here instead of helping solve the problem is part of the problem. And you're talking specifically there about Bob Bennett. Yeah how do you think he's part of the problem. While what you love helping out this seems to me that he ought to be sitting down and meeting -- The step -- in and everyone else is it not look. -- this is what we need to what can we do. On our level what can I do from my levels of border region to help improve school system. Or -- what I think should it if you have any you don't hear that. I think he would he would argue though that the state Education Department has offered all sorts of help and assistance the buffalo district. And found them lacking. Well if they're lucky -- didn't they have the authority. To improve them stay here is that the education system not only impossible but throughout New York street -- went back by understate. Yes something is caught in this state needs to say OK okay here's what we're commune were sitting here and I we're gonna help you improve the quality of education. You know why do you have of this thing which educate it why can't you don't. They're reporting is that so. That's still all get together on no wait until you -- All right we must have the -- the phone lines are starting lineup we happening and happening -- talk about the Supreme Court in affirmative action. But we'll get to that I premise George Arthur is here. Former buffalo City Council member former president of the council. Political observer I guess is the biggest title I can check on him this morning and he is also former member of the board of the NAACP. He's also the plaintiff in Buffalo's school desegregation case way back when. 8030930. Does race matter in education if there was a question that we were able to put on the table the broadly frames the discussion I think that says. I won't get your calls right after this it's hard line on news radio 930 WB yen. It's hard line on news radio 930 WB and this is a week when. Politics and racial issues have come together on a couple of different places. Certainly at the Supreme Court with their University of Michigan affirmative action decision will get to that after the news break at the top of the hour. But also if you look at the ballot for buffalo school board there's a lot of discussion about neighborhood schools. They're in recent weeks has been much discussion about segregation. And -- schools. I thought on all of those council would be a great day to bring in George Arthur. Former president of the buffalo. Common council. The plaintiff in the desegregation. Suit that resulted in federal court ordering buffalo schools to desegregate back in 1977. And a person who can discuss a lot of these racial issues as the program of support. Let's bring in some of those phone calls and make some of that discussion Steve and buffalo thanks for joining us here on the -- This Steve yes good morning with cancer at -- While I understand mr. are good morning good morning he'll probably go very good there and I thank you for your service in the pants thank you. What I am feeling now is that. These racial factor here is one to another level let me get my explanation of my situation my great. Wonderful young Meehan and we -- wanna go to work neighborhood school like -- school he had. Mild form of MS and I don't want a month school buses like go to my local school. It and it's a beautiful school and a beautiful neighborhood. The other thing has happened is that it turned to the other side that in mind some school in 90% white neighborhood. It's 93 point 5% black students and I don't mind. But these four children are being drug around for an Al warning -- sometimes as much as an hourly we have one way to get to school. What do you learn on a school -- He you don't and bringing. You know it is but it's what anti into the right ski team. I think that you're move in from the way they've what is IDG if you -- -- 93%. At 93 point 5% lacked much like what prevents light up that's when guys like Kuerten in the of the head it. They would have and its school. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- A school that's been that is working that is in good -- just a few blocks away. There's diversity I want diversity yes and we you you're -- kids in from all over the city -- -- -- this one particular school. And it's it's not the person anymore well that track in about 101 the other way. Steve how how do you get the diversity without -- what you should just. Neighborhood schools drug -- find out you have to tweak it that's fine you get rid of the boxing and you put every -- located. From city honors to -- -- in uniform. That way when you're skipping school when they're doing anything to stand out like a -- on every ticket in the uniform. It will create school spirit stop bullying in a -- put it forward not backward. But if neighborhoods are segregated wouldn't neighborhood schools perpetuate segregation. You have to tweak it a little bit no doubt about an animal for that but the -- experience now. -- your your destroying our school and and and I agree with that by and I go back to what I originally said that someone make a curtain. You know and not have -- could be a master that would we build schools. And that would be the person who would say this is where it's going to be that is not happening now. But seeing that mean previously. Served like you're talking you're reformed. I don't always agree with. Uniformed whatever it takes me back to my school case it was something that. We had to do. I went to school dirty too which is probably go to school in buffalo. And we had them from the old that the teachers what what they were assigned each state to. They knew that the students they knew the community. I have some of the saint Pete and to plot my mother fought. Bill but we all is meant -- jokes to ensure that we had to Wear a short time. You know we had to have it was a semi I'd just call. You know what not necessary to address school -- in the academy of something like that because that also. Distinguish these kids Iranian makes them feel out of place. And they they would as Steve says that stand out on a street corner of this depends who. Don't think it needs to be some form of just go kids coming in the school -- to pants pulled down you know. It all the other stuff that's out the question or not there to learn yeah. But it's. What's at -- into the right in I used to it in various. Involved with the issues that the board -- -- talks about. The other thing is that how'd he get to the books and and and learning the saint. You know one time when we head but state college it's. You know which is now. It was a teachers college. -- students there but they do about state. Would come into the school on in terms and they -- assistant since the all of that is net. So you wanna you wanna see more. Young teachers involved in the system. I think that the experience. It takes over the you know it's -- -- with some of the older teachers. Merits on the technique because the other problem that we're having today is -- teachers. Is still don't know they had prepared to it is going to be for the whole year. You don't contingent in and out the transfer of a round of bidding any amount schools. What do besides you'd hear me say therefore that the way you need to know who needs to burn the neighborhood. In and so forth and some of the -- and that is although where that's why apply cool aware of this school. All right George we got -- back up against the wall when news breaks here I'd pop you want to hold anyone else who is on hold and and the calls have been -- a pretty regularly here. John or bill or pat stay right where you are we will get you right after the news break George Arthur is here. Former president of the buffalo common council. And way back when 1976. And again 77 I guess he was the plaintiff in buffalo schools desegregation case. These days of course with neighborhood schools being discussed on the ballots may sixth involving the schools. There's a lot kicked around and we haven't even yet touched on affirmative action in the Supreme Court. More to come it's hard line on news radio 930 WB yen. Takes its hardline on news radio nine. And I'll say it again quite a week it is to talk politics earlier this week. The US Supreme Court dealt a blow to affirmative action. And a 62 ruling the court upheld Michigan's ban on using race as a factor in college admissions. Speaking about politics let's look at the ballot on the buffalo school board elections coming up may sixth. You have several candidates there who are talking about neighborhood schools. You have other candidates are raising the issue of race and the role it plays and the sub standard education being given in some neighborhoods. I figured a person who could address all of this for us. Is George Arthur former president of the buffalo City Council a keen observer of politics for for a lot of different years. And way back in 1976 he was a interestingly said last hour. Both of plaintive primarily the plaintiff but also a defendant and the buffalo schools desegregation order. We're talking mostly about schools and segregation we'll get some of those other racial issues as the program develops but I wanna go where the callers are right now. And let's not pick it up with schools John and Rochester you've got a comment about charter schools go ahead. Yeah they -- York you're like I really admire area backyard appreciated. Yet you know IE you mentioned later that. It's public you know XP it charter school but I'll play I would I would look -- This would like I would actually doubled down on the charter schools and I would add another degree. That is private competition in all all should be administered by elite Education Department to make sure. Are the quality is there and I think it ultimately. Will be solution toward education problem what are your thoughts that are along with floaters. Let me -- it that. This school has its place in the educational system in the I'm not against them. In selecting certain schools. I myself. Went to a vocational school Seneca and here buffalo had to take the exam -- -- -- admitted towards. This semis so like this school -- The problem becomes is this is that what you establish is charter school. You're taking money away from the public school. This week it and so you can have well. How do you finance you know having difficulty financing in public school system now. And when you take more money away from it makes it more difficult to give each and every child a complete dedication. It would actually complete education. I mean it's in addition to the reading writing and pessimistic. It's -- the music. Our Q all right when I -- we head into an art we learned of machine it's. The industrial arts in grammar school we pitch where I mean we -- to Jim. We have our -- Kids don't get elected to do that giving that the full ballot in that devastated because of lack of money they had to cut -- -- And in addition to that. Well we just to be with Betsy Stark would -- guard in kindergarten was not mandatory it was mandatory for a first grade. Now it's prekindergarten. In this pre pre -- in regard to all that to drain is that taking away. Votes from -- room prohibiting us to be giving a complete. School that. That's what we need to find out. The proponents always say that charter schools obviously give choice private schools obviously give choice. And and at the end of the day years from now having more of them might improve the education system. Everybody came in the cold case can't afford to -- -- to a private school. Well that's where we did it when you're talking about do you still taking money away from the public school system. So I've heard the argument that sounds like you're almost on board with us but I don't put words in your mouth. Ultimately it could be a good thing but in the process. Kind of like a gang and a slam in the process you have to go through a lot of -- -- his it would destroy public schools. What went I went to school that it is just parochial school system. What was all well and lied he had the choice public school. System or the parochial schools and tolls would have to both went to the program. Got -- and that's what they went but they had to pay for it didn't come out of the culprits of the public school system people want the choice. -- don't have that choice that I think all that but if you don't steal one figure trivia. Bill in buffalo thanks for waiting it's your turn -- -- Umpire -- love this show just wanted to put my little two cents and I grew up in the line that mr. Harper's about. In I gotta say they stayed with the truck a reasonably. Good inner city school system and if you look at the results. They destroyed -- they wasted all this money. In what they have to the end result we only judge people but they're good and pensions and get a result that that's a government thing. What do we say look they made them accept things and we have actually yeah I I grew up in the city. And when McCain country like it to be educated I -- it was a -- I couldn't think of and good conscience I could not stay in this city. And that was the problem because there were a lot of families just like yours bill. Bet that the city because of the deterioration in the -- education system. You know it is that it earlier it's the beginning of the program. Who who thinks that this -- grammys in business they could look at it and cities stumble once. Is the quality of education for those young for at least -- -- having children. Number two hit the cultural. Fields. The cultural institutions in in this so that they can go visit the art galleries -- -- fellow moderates and so for. Also I missed that attract a bet that the. And that decision put -- on the money into boxing. It didn't put the money that should have gone into the schools they would have operated schools instead of course. Kids all over the city for the effect that just people feeling good because now we had collected and what school I think you would have had a better system and people wanna look at this. I think that's -- -- who would -- I think that they -- in pool dove out of school because they did get more funding and the funding was because of the court orders that that mandated that the state do certain things in the city do certain things. In that provided the money that was necessary. You in what into the magnet school system. You -- Anthony's. Who were coming from the suburban areas. Who were giving city addresses because they wanted to go to school here in the -- awful you know one -- quality -- And even we can't possibly be you know city honors which I want to which was great school. And we have everybody. In our -- that result had to perform at Martinsville city are a couple you have been -- detectives. Performing arts -- wasn't good school you. -- -- That technical high school. You go to rehab and a lot of good results typically in that you built racists and into the system -- yet all we talked about was bought in and make a lot of it took tons of money included in the -- to drop -- -- lead in into the school. And I look forward to go but now because always saying but because of time before we'll let you know there. You would argue that if their money was put into something other than desegregation. We have quality schools today. We had something to show -- instead of a lot of kids that took a lot of strides and we got a lot of car lot. That's why can't we we -- have I think when the schools began to create. What's when he settled the case and it would told him to took expected that they would -- -- segregated neighborhood school. -- -- Let's bring in now we have pat on a cell phone -- waiting while thanks for joining us. I think it's a stretch there after that upon. Public schools. -- -- the article mainly on the other -- and which -- more money again -- If they have -- -- that money should be required. But for -- -- my point here at the bigger picture what's -- about black and white who is trying to ensure that. All kids of all races hit quality education you're right that -- -- -- -- The -- law teachers federation despite all this process. There attempt army corps they are in the school -- gave up a seniority rights that it. Even now the judge's order stood to desegregate the schools. We still have a system that allows more senior teachers that didn't -- schools. -- -- Other kids that don't -- it makes you experienced teacher. Burst and the experienced teacher and I put Giricek at about the leadership. A report all over the last ten years and currently. It's -- -- -- -- -- appellate you know outgrow that shot on that at that accomplish anything except get a couple of people fire. Yeah didn't end. I somewhat agree with I think that in the fact that. Teachers are able that the -- out in and there's no. Olive -- that teachers are not able to establish themselves as a particular school. That. And I hate to say this because its original program. But when I was -- Is this your earlier teachers when assigned to a school via the public high school they stay there. They would they knew all the of the kids they knew that enable it and so forth in it was a different -- and they became experience. The day kids don't know from week to week who 52 maybe. Now and that is Apollo. That is appalled that -- be worked out with the DT SC in home today in the in the administration uses as well. The other thing is that when you start talking about comic quarry and all of this thing is they have me now. They're -- just trying to change the education system overnight. You can't do that. He can't do that because we have made too many mistakes and it has their kids who don't know how hasn't learned to meet right and we need to. Talking about. Starting Q itself in the business sense in burning do reading writing arithmetic. And because -- problem night in and money is -- the issue. Do you agree with his basic criticism of the buffalo teachers federation the union. Well I think union needs to sit down and the unit is not perfect yet. That that they need to do being given Albert more to the school system and and -- up would go for it. So that they can be some innovations and some others -- -- accord in individuals into the system. All right John any struck come on in join us in the we'll take a break right after you. -- -- -- -- On the -- I turned the army to our electronic poitier guess that we're taking money out of the -- of school. That's taxpayer money that's my money. The government takes away from me and we'll be along with what all the other services that. That they try to provide to a obviously it's a disaster public school at the absolute disaster. -- -- or it could become apparent I think its economy electric. It and several I have to say is -- a proper relationship between the unions the government. I think -- here. Big change in the coming election maybe not a local level. Of literally getting a couple of taxpayer are really getting fed up with -- George what do you say well I eat you know it everything that we do is -- -- today. You know is this don't -- get to this city and we need to you know carpet waste but. Your argument earlier that in order to give money to even privates through vouchers. Or charter schools you'll be taking it away from the public school system. Wait and that. And that's that's more possessive of their money that I think this caller wants you to be. Well Z. Yeah is -- that's probably so but I disagree with him on on their part if you want to go to private school. That's like five that you pay for it's just like we have private college over a public college or private university overall public university. You go to the private university you can get a little bit more you quote prevails in this subsidize some of the state universities and state colleges. You know you pay a little bit. All right speaking of colleges that I know with that we would shoe horn in the Supreme Court will do that after the break stay with us. George -- is here this is Dave Tebow it's hard line on news radio 930. WB yen. News radio 9:30 AM WB and. It's hard right now -- news radio 930 WVU and this -- de depot. George -- is with us before we're done you're gonna try to squeeze one more call -- but I did want talk about the Supreme Court George. And it looked a little bit and they're ruling earlier this week on Tuesday the court dealt a blow to affirmative action it's 62 ruling. They upheld Michigan's ban on using race as a factor in college admissions. You've been -- a board member of the NAACP for for god knows how long what do you think about this one. If it's a major major blow. To affirmative action in some -- Integration of college you're giving your movements and institutions of higher learning. I think that. You know we -- is from the NAACP. Prospective and others. According to kick a ball -- okay come up with a different strategy. In order to be you be able to gain admittance to the privacy and so these. And institutions so part of earning. That there is some quality and in the. The argument goes well personal -- was looking at legally saying the states have a right to put this kind of ban on. But more more broadly more holistic -- they said perhaps the time for this is gone what do you say. I don't agree with that I don't agree with that at all and unions are saying that hey you know we couldn't stay reported on hold referendums. And those I think that people would referendums. In this -- and a money. Practical problems in the others in -- were interested. In in providing a good. Well rounded. Education for everybody stepped out. Various ethnic groups -- -- Null and to love each other is who. Schools in in in in institutions and being able to sit down in this thing now. No admittance. Is to some of these institutions of higher it is just some major bowl. In daily life I don't have to tell you I'm sure there is racism still existing and we will get. We look at the clippers in the story that's in the news there involving the owner of the NBA team. While we we just look at buffalo look at TD eight. What did they possible move C editorial in the endorsement for the -- fit. I knew you gonna go -- go ahead. You know if it's so that there. During the fourth Reich candidate on inaudible qualified to be endorsed by the whose war. The all the board you've got. Individuals there who were told nothing about education -- no nothing about -- education but they had thought. But can't can't you make the argument that we need to be a race blind society and there are for colleges shouldn't be doing this anymore. But we can't do that gets -- no we can't make debt that is really fired because we're not reached. And in this not equal willful blacks whites into everything into -- a double play in the field. You can't say we should be racing you know very blind society because we're not. You know in this taken into -- there's so that. Opens in their -- undercover. And and in there until everybody is in the open and honest with each other. This week but we're not being honest with each other and everybody is not giving. The same though is it's just IP argument. Women getting paid best in this. All right coming up after the news we're gonna talk a little bit about governor almost poll numbers some new ones out this week we'll also look at later in this the so. Pope John Paul mount Saint John Paul he had a visit to buffalo back went. Enough time to squeeze in one quick more call with you George first let's go to Tom in buffalo high. I gentlemen I'm at the beginning of the show you had a professor on he was beaten. Or some I think that if. Local communities was 95 cents after American students or -- church. I'm Caucasian students Islamic that occurred organically. Everything Cokie -- but the fact is there's no organic community in the world. Far from a legal point of view he was saying absolutely the court rulings that said it's OK as long as it's segregation. By default rather than. By design. Is always affected by government. On the laws and procedures. Now like you've got -- the federal drug laws you've got voting rights act it's been reversed you've got to money equals speech. English words that poor neighborhoods will always be -- yes these laws directly affect. The community and it's com. Make up. So you say there's no such thing is organic towards you agree. I graduate in May. And let you know if it's worth the money go to medical device can -- -- The forced -- -- All right. We'll have to leave that that we at a time George thanks for joining a sacred conversation glad you can make it. Skated. Thank you for having me or we can do -- again sometime in the future. Oh you've got a deal this was fun that's that's George Arthur plaintiff in the buffalo schools desegregation case political observer. Board member of the NAACP.