Mar 18, 2014|
Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Maybe it's time for buffalo means business -- your host buffalo radio veteran and local business that's a good buddy Shula. Buffalo means business is the hour long weekly radio show that spotlights local business. This morning's it was brought you by doctor Bob dental care for worry free dentistry -- your nearest doctor Bob location. And Mike copier fax business technologies for the whole first document diligence. If you look like a business featured on this show please call 8430167. That's 8430167. Now euros bloody -- It's another edition of buffalo means business my name is -- Shula thank you for listening to the show -- devoted to local business. Here in Western New York. Not often where we devote a full hour or two. A business topic usually we have filed on many different businesses and in one buffalo means business show. But today we're gonna do something different if I ever feel strongly that a topic is that important. That's -- will talk about for the hour and I do feel that way in this case. Because this showed today read up till 7 o'clock he is devoted. To bankruptcy. And I know you might think bankruptcy is a bad word but were gonna talk about this word and a lot of different ways. And we're here with our bomb Meister Esquire. Art is a bankruptcy attorney he's with the firm -- guns Sanchez in match three LLP. First of all I wanna say and welcome -- to the show so things are coming here are all thank you buddy it's pleasure being here. We have a lot to talk about in terms of bankruptcy. First of all. We're gonna get your background and the second art but what I want and always is and mean just the nuts and bolts of -- what does bankruptcy. Well bankruptcy. Is a it's basically a scheme that setup under the federal system. Of all the law that allows individuals in businesses. To address their financial problems is is is. Everybody who files bankruptcy. In Lebanon cardboard box under the bridge somewhere not at all in fair to one of the perceptions that I think people have a bankruptcy is that rich people are able to file. And get away with discharging -- -- that. Certainly. That I think is a misperception. But. People of means file and get relief from their financial circumstances. Big businesses such as GM have filed Chapter Eleven and successfully right successfully reorganized. Under Chapter Eleven of the bankruptcy code. A small businesses. Can reorganize. And certainly. Individuals. Who have been struggling and don't him. Means. But certainly are able to. Kevin in common in get -- they can they can obtain relief under the bankruptcy code as well what thing you were saying you know off the year. Is that it's a right given Q by law bankruptcies are right that everybody has correct. Bankruptcy is eight a federal. Walk in -- yeah its. Every one if they qualify as a daughter under the bankruptcy code as a right to file bankruptcy. Under the statutory. System. In. Bankruptcy is now at a rate that can be waste. If individuals sign a contract that says I waive the right to file bankruptcy I can't file bankruptcy. That provision and eccentric does not enforceable. So. There is a strong public policy. In favor of allowing. Individuals in businesses. To a team -- start through bankruptcy. We're gonna talk a lot about this subject that good the bad mists of the gifted chapters of bankruptcy. He and how can help however may not help a business how can help consumer -- mean that help the average consumer prefer someone to talk about your background and you have an amazing names. In in the bankruptcy. Realm. I don't know if it's say it. But but you really are respected. Attorney in bankruptcy here in western new York and -- wanna. Talk a little bit about how it. Became today you know little butcher your background. Well. Life concentrated. In practicing bankruptcy. Four. All right seat 22 of my 27 years in practice -- 122 years or something. I started handling. Bankruptcy cases as part of a general practice as a younger attorney. It was a practice that was interesting to me personally. Because it involves. Negotiation. Strategy. Planning where your organization. Litigation. In in court bankruptcy is seat -- specialized. Type of courts. So you really as a lawyer able to enjoy all aspects of of legal practice by by doing in time. -- -- -- -- 22 years or more. I've I've handled. Probably hundreds or thousands of cases. All kinds of different cases individuals. Corporations. Representing creditors. And that's a subject that I I think we can talk about later to creditors' rights and bankruptcy because. There's a perception again and I think there are a lot of misperceptions about bankruptcy but there's a perception. That the F. Someone -- money has filed bankruptcy that dancing animate you're never gonna collective thank so why even bother that's that's certainly not the case. And you also have a very special. -- That we were talking about that you got maybe a few years ago. -- special certification. Well -- I do hear of our board certification. In consumer bankruptcies in hand in business bankruptcy. It required an examination. And like the bar examination here to actually study for a in continuing legal education. And answer author. So and it's very important to have an attorney when you think the bankruptcy -- has a good track record right. I think it's it's very important to hear out the bankruptcy attorney who is experienced. In bankruptcy. It is a specialized kind of practiced. Doesn't mean you have to go to -- board certified attorney there there are many many. Very good experienced a bankruptcy attorneys in Western New York were really. Clients consumers businesses. -- have a choice of many qualified people. When a person comes to you thinking about bankruptcy. And how do they have any you -- mean. Miss in their mind that just aren't true what are the biggest ones. Well you know what what I see when a client are comes through the door is usually fear. When -- first comment sure. That cardboard box right -- that fear fear that you know whatever they do -- -- -- -- -- half if if they do file bankruptcy. That they're gonna lose everything. It's I think one of the -- that. Creditors will take everything. Tom. Fehr also I think is based and for hips a stigma that the bankruptcy -- -- for individuals. A misunderstanding. Of weather -- -- -- -- he may even be an action. Whether whether an individual may qualify for relief. He. Businesses. If have a fear because we've usually been working trying to hold off creditors. For months and months and months. They may have heard that. Chapter Eleven is only available for large corporations. That smaller corporations. They may have heard horror stories of other businesses that times have filed. The end. Again there's there's a certain amount of certain would certainly legitimate trepidation. Of coming in and even talking about the problem but. Unless you unless you addressed the issues on the LSU actually evaluate what our options are available to you. You're going to be left in the dark as to what what alternatives and options might be available to you when I find that so. Any client that walks through the door. First of all they've acknowledged that that there is an issue that needs to be addressed and wants addressing the issue they feel a lot better about it. Especially once we evaluate what they don't do something about a financial situation. And they owe people a lot of money your business owns all. You know they have a lot of creditors calling -- and at the door what could happen. Well this this happens quite often. And the individual side I'll I'll find individuals that -- have tried everything including. Using up all of their retirement savings. Using her entire arteries 41 K plans paying penalties to to take early withdrawals and I IRAs. Putting mortgages and and there are house if they're able to get refinancing. Borrowing money from friends and gambling. And then still may be at a point where. Bankruptcy is the best option for them here they come in earlier. Other retirement plans would have been protected because those are exempt assets creditors are not entitled to take those trustees not entitled to take care take up -- pension retirement or hiring. They wouldn't of hips have burden their family members with with law owns. There's property that they are allowed to keep because -- and individual cases. Players they're very generous exemptions. For property. And the business side. You'll have clients come and who have already soured their relationships with their vendors. Have not been able to service customers because. They either can't find product or don't have sufficient inventories of product. Hands. It may be at the point where. It's it's too late to reorganize. So if if you're experiencing financial problems it helps to address the options early and because you you could reach. Point of of no return. So -- when someone reaches out to you. What what's the first state to get up summit. I'm I'm a guy and mean street in buffalo and I have a lot of credit cards I when I just don't know -- at the money to pay these people and get weird phone calls and everything else from a business I just can't keep. This base -- don't have a casual Plame and I employees don't have to pay the vendors. So I call someone like you are bomb oyster. What's the next step and call you what happens. Well I usually. Ask the client to I gather information. Forming so that we can ever productive meeting. When -- client comes in the office to go over the situation. And the individuals hide that information would. Includes. Information about what property they own real estate so personal property motor vehicles. I'd also. I also I try to get a good idea what their debt situation as weather and after facing any lawsuits. What are there any mortgage foreclosure actions pending. Whether there any judgments are -- in place whether their wages are being tarnished. And the business side financial statements in context returns and again. Similar type information whether any collection lawsuits -- -- actually started in the current relationship. With our routers including. Bankrupt others who might have secured claims. I will. Do some investigation I'm my own public record wise. I will independently looked to see if Ernie public record filings of judgments. UCC filings. You know which means and personal property. Mortgages lawsuits. For individuals around a credit report. With all that information we will sit down. In score for the entire situation. Bankruptcy is not always an option there there are alternatives. As well. But. There I always try to explain. Various courses of action even if even if it appears ridiculous just -- that to the client. He has an idea. Of actions one action has to do nothing. I always I always tell my claim one option is he onto anything -- second -- good option it's never good action. It's never good action because if someone is facing wage parish mentors someone is. Being pressured to right by creditors is just going to continue so will rule out the other option. Other options are for individuals. Consumer credit counseling. Reputable ones because there are a lot of scam artists out there. Settling -- outside of bankruptcy. Trying to get a refinancing it would make sense for individuals. For business us. Working with creditors. Try to obtain concession from trade creditors. Tried to obtain. Four appearances from secured creditors. To enable business to -- -- brief. And operate. We're here with -- bomb Meister and art is the expert in the area of bankruptcy. And you know -- business needs it or if you needed what is your phone number how would somebody get that you are. Well in the buffalo area code of 71685. To thirteen hundred. This office numbered immigrants interest mentoring. -- -- directly and you could maybe schedule an appointment for somebody and assess certain needs. I would be happy to talk to anyone who calls and will be back with our second segment here of our bankruptcy show. He read news radio 930. WB EN buffalo means business my name is -- Shula will be right. Everyone. We're going to need volunteers to work this weekend. This topic just killing. Thanks for volunteering mark there and let him be an example for the rescue. It's time for yourself some blues dealt with street. 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Who is a a great bankruptcy attorney here in western new York and were were were dispelling the myth that bankruptcy. Has Saatchi -- a bad name there's good there's bad and that's what we're here to talk about with art bum oyster today so walking back to our second segment here -- Thank you funny. Are right so bankruptcy they call off fresh start. What is what is so fresh start about bankruptcy. The overriding purpose of bankruptcy. Is to give an individual or business for start. And that's just not a colloquial term -- actually used in the case law and is the purpose of bankruptcy. Early case law. And what that means is to enable. You or an individual or business. To emerge from the bankruptcy process. Unburdened by debt to the point where. Both the individual or the business as the case may be can be -- productive. Unit in our economy. An individual. Who is no longer burdened by debt does -- here of the emotional distress that's associated. With dealing with that. Is going to be. More productive in the workplace. And contribute more to the national academy and same thing with a business. Eight a business that time is is failing that does half. Viability. If it's able to reorganize and restructure its debt is good for the economy if -- if it emerges all the fresh start. Is on new opportunity. To be productive. You know our the economy and society. Unburdened. I. Financial obligations it if you -- credit card debt. Or Canada where you can't and I is that it is -- guarantee that someone's got to get these stats are raced. The at stats a difficult question. I guarantee may be a strong word. But if were Gifford talking individuals I know work that we can mix of go back and forth but -- In -- in an individual case. An individual who qualifies for chapter seven or chapter thirteen which -- the two major chapters that individuals file. Have an absolute right to a discharge unless someone objects. What they were flagrant I mean what -- what do I went to Vegas democratic carrots. And you know all of sudden came back with 20000 dollars in debt. And I don't wanna pay these things anymore now I'd like to dispel the notion that they -- to people who file bankruptcy. Can get away was doing. Holy counselor with two and it can't get away with doing I'm sure that some half. But. If if you incurred debt and our creditor can show you had no intention to repay which I think is. Fairly easy to do -- before you file you go to Las Vegas or you're gonna cruise. Or you buy an expensive current president. Unsecured credit. -- creditor here as the very. Good case for objecting to discharge from the what would happen if they objected to it. The F -- they can either object to discharge of their particular depth or if we can -- is more egregious. Could. Object to the overall discharge. Which means that once you're done with bankruptcy. You don't necessarily get that first start that bankruptcy and it is designed to do you emerge from bankruptcy stole owing their debt. Now most individuals. Are and a staffers and they don't do that. But I think there is and and it's very rare quite frankly in my practice -- prophetic. -- of instances where we're clients have done that. But it's very rare in my practice. Mostly individuals that that I seen. Are. Hard working. Have struggled tremendously in trying to deal with their debt problems. And just about -- on able to do it usually there outside factors such as. Medical issue which is to program because of -- effect of persons of all work plus are incurring debt. Don't force is is another situation like causes people they have big time debt problems because you're talking about splitting up and two households and having to. Two new sets and tool sets of expenses when there used to be one. Wants the job so in those those are that the situations that people face and individuals in most situations. Are entitled to a discharge in hand. There would be no basis to object to discharge so. If the individual -- qualified for chapter seven credit card debt. Would be discharged ball in in the case. And vast majority -- to somebody look at it and say well this is a good reason that they got and -- critic Caridad or this is a batteries and they probably should have been in Vegas. I mean does somebody look at it that way in and and charge it. There there are. It's various layers of fond of overseers. In into bankruptcy proceeding. In a chapter seven and chapter thirteen case there is an independent trustee. Who are reviews. The financial schedules that are filed. Questions. The better. And gets a sense of of weather and after median abuse. There's also a US trustee's office. Which is a branch of the US Department of Justice in the oversee all bankruptcy filings. And they perform. A watchdog function of sorts as well if they believe that there is -- abuse. They will question the daughter. They will object to discharge if need be if they believe it's appropriate. If there is they actually -- crime such as someone has. Has intentionally. Omitted information from their bankruptcy schedules. Or -- -- -- examination. They will refer cases to the to the US department justice for further investigation and prosecution. So the bankruptcy is Matt. Eight. Run up all -- a baton and run the bankruptcy and discharge and bankruptcy is for. And a staffers who really are trying to make -- And just him that enabled him how many times can somebody filed bankruptcy and how often. In individual who gets -- chapter seven -- church in chapter seven is. Call liquidation type bankruptcy there is no plan or you make payments to a trustee. A trustee looks at whether an -- you have any property that snapped exempt exempt property and keep. Hand to if you have non others -- distribution the creditors. If -- discharge and a chapter seven case. Will prevent you from filing for eight years. For another chapters but then you can do this again right if you ever get in that situation. You could. And they look at that is that they look at the other one and say well this guy's been in here couple times. They -- -- upmanship or thirteen cases where there is an absolute right for a daughter to dismiss the case slow what you can you can you see repeat filers doing chapter thirteen. Where they'll file a case to save. House or an investment property from foreclosure. Then dismiss the case and and one. The tape -- starts. To get going here they do it again. And do it again. But. There are safeguards that are put in the system that prevent repeat filing that are BofA. So bankruptcy from a federal standpoint costs taxpayers a lot of money -- for president. We have to think about the who's footing who's footing the bill when somebody files and creditors are paid -- they're paid a small portion of what the road. What I mean did does that hurt taxpayers at all that people filed bankruptcy. TX payers -- would be pain or. Probably be paying for one way or another. Think that the direct cost to taxpayers would be the cost of file Bankruptcy Courts. The cost of employees in the US. Trustee's office. And I wouldn't I wouldn't think that those costs are are all there are great in comparison to the amount of -- that quite frankly is is just church. That. -- foreign by Crowder is with on the national economy. In in directly those cross me compared to consumers but it's it's spread out. One could argue they apt to. In the absence of -- bankruptcy system across may be higher. Because. These creditors would be expending additional monies. That they wouldn't be able to collect. From individuals that are essentially on collectible from. He ends perhaps spending more money that's passed on to consumers but I'd I'll leave that to the economist and it. Yeah it's interesting because you know again you know you just read and the inner -- whatever that some Hollywood star. He is you know filing for bankruptcy UK and you -- you think yourself you know -- somebody who makes that much money. File for bankruptcy but then then the other part that you go under read is that they just kept sixteen million dollar house. You know popped it -- -- I don't I don't think that were necessarily getting all the checks when we you know when we hear about eight. Famous individual or sports figure that that has filed. Many of these individuals. Have -- while a lot of and they they really have no positive net worth. So they may go through bankruptcy. In it may appear that they have a lot but. At the end of the day. May be the bank and ends up taking all there on their property. What -- which he ever heard there is some truth to is that some states who have unlimited homestead exemptions. I mentioned exemptions a couple of times exemptions. Every individuals entitled to exempt certain property. And that dispel some -- that you're gonna lose everything if you file bankruptcy. Exemptions are quite generous and they're not going to take pressure off your Barack and I can take the accounts from your living rumored TV set. Most household belongings are exempt retirement. Plants are exempt. Equity in -- house. That umi. Is it can be exempt to a certain amount some states have unlimited. Homestead exemptions so that means at their house would be exempt their house may be exempt even if it's worth millions of hours so to a post states umpire. Florida and Texas I don't know if they've modified their laws since then or what the what the -- what congress has done in 20051. The bankruptcy code was radically amend it. Congress attempted to limit the amount that you could exempt. Under those state statutes. And did it bank. By providing for a certain period of time that you may have to actually be domicile live in the state before you're able to claim that states exemptions and and if it's prior. Only work two to some degree in preventing people from moving to a state that's very friendly. Two debtors and has those large exemptions. The have to be serious about about moving there. But. Any individual who hit as high income. Doesn't mean they're not -- the bankruptcy relief. Or he has a lot of property doesn't mean and and so the bankruptcy relief and doesn't mean they won't get that. Will be scrutinized by the trustee or the US trust those that'll walk in the park. It yet hasn't. But for for most people the other side of it as. If if you are appropriately. If they -- in in in your bankruptcy case. You will gets some relief. And I would think that representation. From someone like you. He is I mean as an apps so I would think that that's a very Smart thing to do is to have somebody like you representing them. I mean I'm Gary do people ever go it alone and -- on an attorney. Qualified legal counsel specially in the bankruptcy. Arena is is so important because there are many pitfalls. Some individuals do try to call. He ends. And it it usually doesn't handle. And there are attorneys who. Don't practice all the time there who who -- Word good bankruptcy protection curse but there are authors who. Are not experienced in the area and Internet service like anything else I mean in in any profession. You know there are some -- -- -- -- but the pitfall -- chapter seven cases once you file your case. You're you're and it you don't have a right to get rid of your case. So if there's property that you're going to lose. You probably start there now he might be able to convert to a different chapter of bankruptcy to keep your property but then you would have to make payments and -- plan. Equivalent to the the value per. See this is the information you need if you're if you're even thinking about this -- what -- -- of financial difficulties and just wanna explorer. The options before it's too late. Someone like art bomb -- Will help you explore these options it's that it doesn't have to be a negative stigma to it. It it can end up as a fresh start for you which -- really do need the education from someone from some like you'll instead of finding and on the Internet and frankly I mean. I'm I'm learning a lot from what you're saying are right now again -- -- were at our bomb Meister. Esquire he specializes. In bankruptcy. What's your phone number guarantee someone wants to 71685. To thirteen hundred -- will be back with our third segment of buffalo means business. Right after this. 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Here's something you don't hear on the radio every day someone who can't see. I am totally blind and I go through periods where I'm unable to sleep at night and feel like I'm constantly running back can never quite catch up. But this isn't a sleep problem it's something called -- 24. Learn about the link between total blindness in your symptoms does -- learn more or non to Ford dot com or call 8558562424. Sponsored by Vanda Pharmaceuticals. TV's best part of Sunday -- doctor -- Richards and his cast of characters. Don't miss doctor. 1030 Sunday mornings on ESPN -- 1520. When their parents get more involved in our schools something happened to -- more involved in schools here -- are more likely to -- want to comment because a little involvement comes along my center in your local PTA or visit PTA cat or a message from the ad council on national PTA. Welcome back to our third and final segment of our bankruptcy show my name is -- -- this is buffalo means business. Here and WB EN and ESPN radio on hero with art bomb Meister who is. Actually -- specialists specializes in bankruptcy bankruptcy laws. Helping people through the process. You could collar bomb Meister and talked to him directly if you have any questions I think education. He in this realm -- what were really going for -- It to be fully educated we can do an hour show on bankruptcy but I mean bankruptcies a big process. You may not have all the answers your questions in one hour show. Call our bomb like Acer talked to let him assess your situation. Maybe it's for you maybe it's not but I think you'll know that after after having a conversation with you I mean it's pretty much -- right there. -- -- I would be more than willing to. Talked to anybody can edit an Israeli wait their situation hand you know I just wanna emphasize that time any client that comes to me. I do not push anyone to have to do a bankruptcy filing. We evaluate to that the individual situation. Each individual situation is so different each business situation is so different. It's amazing how different all of these situations -- bankruptcy is not always an alternative. When it is I will -- that it be done and it isn't it will roll. Give advice to do something else. Let's talk about small business in a chapter of bankruptcy it's like to have papers is like a book there's all these chapters. And one chapter we're gonna talk about right now as we. Started third segment is Chapter Eleven. And that's of people here about. When it comes to. Business. Reorganization. Of years if you search on the web are -- hearing around the radio and hear about a business it's probably some to do with Chapter Eleven. Let's talk about Chapter Eleven small businesses. In what it means for small business to do that -- I mean does does Chapter Eleven means that businesses failing terrorism and attempt to make it better. The business. Does that half to. Ian solvent. Does that have to be. Failing to pay its debts as it becomes do. In order qualify for Chapter Eleven relief. In some countries. At that he has a requirement. However. A business usually is installment. Or that -- their debts when they become due. One considering. Chapter Eleven and when you see insulting you're you're basically it's a euphemism for no money. Well it it means that the debts of the company are more than. It's assets. So you've got they had aspect to it and you'll also hear of the cash flow aspect. Where the businesses and generating enough money to pay its debts as it is kind. So the Chapter Eleven gives businesses. A little time to -- right. We had talked earlier about the automatic stay -- and that's that's a very important aspect of the Chapter Eleven case once the cases filed. Creditors are. Prohibited from trying to collect and there are claims now if you have a bank that he has -- mean in most most businesses him banks at that moment to moment. And the able -- and all the collateral. You work out something with the bank where usually makes payments to them. But general routers. Are prohibited from from trying to. Collect the claimant and actually that the banks are too although they have certain protections. Do the do the creditors always get the shaft in terms of a Chapter Eleven. Capsule in that the end they that I think is is is a big. Meth or misperception. That time even businesspeople. That if a -- -- dealing with -- files Chapter Eleven. They're neck and get anything. -- and. There is no reason to participate in the bankruptcy proceeding. Because it's just going to be a waste of money. That couldn't be further from the truth from a general standpoint. Now there may be situations where it doesn't make sense to participate in the bankruptcy proceeding but I give me a couple of examples. We're would be. The F eight. Vendor who sells goods to a daughter. Has delivered goods within twenty days. They haven't administrative claim they get paid first before or general routers but you have to assert their claim. Hillary are saying that the creditor asked stand up for yourself exactly exactly because if if you don't or you don't file your claim in the case. -- -- -- Unsecured creditors. Those are creditors that don't have liens they don't have credit where Sprecher democratic parents or or could be trade. You know trade vendors they just don't hear of collateral for for what their vote. They can they get together and form a committee. In a Chapter Eleven case. That committee. Can't play a large role in forcing a daughter was reorganizing. To treat them more beneficial -- on the -- would otherwise. So participation in the case can result in very valuable returns for -- now that doesn't always mean that the crowd is gonna get returns but. You need to evaluate. Your position. Via via their case to determine whether or not it's worthwhile to participate. Secured creditors. Have a having having collateral on having liens on property. -- a very strong position to participate in the case. They can usually dictates. The nature of a plan in hand there and titled it's adequate protection to -- While -- cases pending. And your talk when you talk about playing you're talking about a reorganization plan for that company. That's correct in the that's that's the ultimate goal of a Chapter Eleven case you do that you have to go into Chapter Eleven with a plane. With a formal reorganization plan. You can't. But you can operate your business. With protection of of the automatic stay. And operate your business for a period of time and unfortunately. You get the the breathing room that that you need to evaluate your business maybe take some steps to cut costs. Restructuring internally. Maybe hire new people maybe hires some consultants. Maybe do some different arrangements with vendors you can do all that before formulating a plan. And then. When it appear when you if your plan. Which can be very forcible by the way. And you're ready for Iowa you can put together reorganization plan in hand a proposed to treat your creditors a certain way. Is there which GM did I mean most people heard of General Motors or Chrysler or one of the big companies during the Chapter Eleven. Yeah I mean is that the same situation they had a plan to repay. The money back -- mean. It is a percent to we're talking about kind of if it is in when he here GM filing Chapter Eleven that's the scene Chapter Eleven at that small businesses that shows Delhi can canyon canyon files to file and many emerge from from bankruptcy. Reorganized and and strong and viable companies. General Motors once was. Very unusual case in the sense that it was so huge and so complex. They are Chapter Eleven case to that actually last very -- Leave they went in pretty much with a plan in hand. All the constituents. Labor unions creditors. Federal government to the extent they participated. Work together and and and rivalry or company. So basically am chose to -- and I say boy you know I've got 50000 dollars of -- out there I don't know how dominant pay the bills. I want to file a Chapter Eleven. And I would I would give somebody like you were out formulate a plan to payback that money with with an attorney like -- Chapter Eleven allows Joe's going to do a couple of different things one would be a traditional reorganization. Where you would. Perhaps restructure bank debt spread it out over perhaps longer Packers have I have to agree with that. There are certain. Writes that the -- he has to to attempt to convince the court to cram down. Eight restructuring of bank debt and the secured creditor. As long as the credit retains its clean hands. -- it's it's basically being treated. Fairly in view of the marketplace and in and interest rates and terms. You may be able to cram down a restructure of secured debt over the objection of secured creditor. Unsecured creditors. You can't do so. You need to. Be able to get there -- need to get their consent to reorganization plan. Which in many cases is -- difficult because the alternative to reorganization is usually what we're dating accompany him in in most cases unsecured creditors. May get nothing. If if the company were were liquidated but the the other types of plans you can you can do you you could. Sell the assets of the company through Chapter Eleven plan. That you could proposed issuing new stack I get new investors. There there are many many different it's plans. That -- that you could put together to reorganize the business. And what you choose to do depends of -- The desires of the clients and the realities. That the businesses face. So basically we're talking about protection bankruptcy is -- protection. That's afforded to you. In this in this country but -- to go through processing you have to. Prove it and someone like you can help you through that process were here with our -- oyster. And our special bankruptcy show here buffalo needs businessmen in his body Shula we have about four minutes left here wanna talk about a couple things. Scams what kind of scams are there out of scams everywhere and. Well there there -- scams everywhere. What what consumers I think face. Our in what I see myself when clients Tommy. Are many many. Debt settlement companies. Usually through the Internet to they advertise. And you know I I don't wanna say that. -- that would gentlemen I don't wanna say that. There are some that. Some may very well providing good service for consumers but I think the vast majority have to look out for. Many times these companies will require you to. Make monthly payments to them -- put money into a bank account for you and then. Represent that they're going to settle your debts. What IC. From many of these companies is. That predators will matter except a settlement will go ahead take a judgment we'll start furnishing wages. And before you know it. The client has to file bankruptcy in and they may have settled a couple of these claims and spent thousands of dollars. And have to file bankruptcy anyway that's it's money that's that's out the window sometimes they don't settlement owned just keep her money. It's probably it's probably rarer but I think the chapter seven trustees would would agree that. These companies have to be heavily scrutinized. If anyone were. To think to use them now. Our local consumer credit counseling company. Is a legitimate company in hand. In its -- have viable option for some people. In dealing with with debt problems and this thing I'd be very careful with dealing with -- -- net debt relief com. Still there are plenty of considerations. Censure for you is a consumer or you was a business owner. If you're thinking about restructuring. Your dad work you're thinking about bankruptcy we've learned from the show today. That it's it's not in and all its not. You know -- you're not living in a cardboard box it is a security blanket perhaps for you. And it offers you know by law. Some all alternatives for you. I guess the only thing is for these considerations for filing you have to look your own circumstance. Our bomb Meister can help you do that. You know I learned a lot in the past hour we're gonna have in the show Kendrick users that ought to talk about appreciate it thank you but he but for people who me he'd need to know more information. Again your real guy -- respected in the bankruptcy realm here in Western New York. You can call art directly -- with evidence Sanchez -- in match three. LOP and just give us your phone number -- 716852. Thirteen hundred. And our first ever want our bankruptcy show I like this a lot alike so we're gonna take you for being here are well it's been a pleasure. And -- issue. My name is -- -- another edition of buffalo means business coming up next week right here. On WB EN news radio 930 and ESPN fifth. -- thank you for listening to buffalo means business would -- host buffalo radio veteran M local business have a good -- Shula. Bubble means businesses an hour long weekly radio show that's spotlights a local business brought you by doctor Bob dental care. More -- free dentistry hold your nearest doctor -- location. And by copier fax business technologies go home of document intelligence. To -- your favorite local business featured on this program please call 8430167. That's 8430167. Thanks for listening to buffalo means business on ESPN fifteen to want me.