David cay Johnston is with us David Johnston cay Johnston is a Pulitzer Prize winning. Writer on taxes he's a best selling author -- board president of IRE. That's investigative reporters and editors he someone who has looked at this and looked at the tax code. And looked at the situation in Albany excuse me in Washington and he joins us now on the line from Rochester serve up that early confusion I'm glad you're here sir. -- I wanna talk about some of the myths that I've heard out there. And let's start with the first one that these aren't real cuts. Only cuts in the rate of growth. This is the kind of thing the Republicans say won't hurt us it'll just help us in the long run what you said. Well first -- both parties. Play games with understanding budgets. As the population gets bigger and inflation erodes the value of dollars. And spending increases. Right I mean nobody in their right mind would expect to buy a house today for the price of houses were in 1949. So having said that. President Obama has been the most tight fisted president in recent years in the area. That what's called this. If you look at the annualized increases under Obama as opposed to George W. Bush who was an even bigger spenders and Lyndon Baines Johnson. As compared to Ronald Reagan. As compared to Bill Clinton you'll see that. Obama has become fairly tight fisted. That -- shock to a lot of people a lot of people believe there's polls showing -- only about 6% of Americans understand that the deficit is getting its. Smaller under Obama. -- down. I believe this year from the 2009 when we have the stimulus. Which are conduct went about it. It's down 600 billion dollar. So that's an astonishing. Wondering about but it should be even greater. If we have more economic growth we don't have more economic growth because president Obama's policies. Together with congress have been reducing the number public employees. Well during the recession when Ronald Reagan was scheme and office. Government employment went up dramatically. That brings me you mentioned the economy and growth that brings me to number two on the list there are people out there that say if these cuts kick in. That it will just it'll -- growth we will become Europe. Look at some of the austerity programs in Greece when that kicked in that's when their economy tanked granted they were there were kind on the brink of crisis to begin with. But you talk a little bit David about what happens if these cuts kick in. Are you in the no big deal we need at camp are you in the almighty god will devastate us off camp. Well -- even John Boehner. The house speaker says this is the stupidly didn't think senators Orrin hatch. Conservative Republican senator from Utah this will be very very troubling and the not to be compared to Europe went back about a minute. That he -- what these mean tax cuts will do right now it's tax season okay. BI RS is to the government -- Clerks are there -- retail store and what surgeons are the one hospital it's the sales force that the people bring in the reverend. Put their right mind would hot and by growing revenue agents. Editors and people who processed tax return to responded to consumer. I mean that texture request for help. -- and taxis. That's that's that's -- it is literally politically and economically insane to do that. If you are heavy business traveler and I'm -- I've been paying attention to this you're about to discover a system in which. Their planes will be delayed all over the plate cut about 10% of air traffic controllers starting in the people are going to have to be laid off. And that means airplanes that normally would fly safe separated by two to five miles or not can be separated by as much just running mile. And it's going to interfere with business and make business was sufficient. -- these are -- Scot and let's remember how this came about it came about response to Tea Party Republicans. We're going to defect on the federal debt. You know the average blended interest rate the federal government is paying today. Is less than half what it was in the year 2000. Our interest rates are going down down down even though we're borrowing more. I am refinancing my house at two point 6%. And then I plan to buy a second out of even though it's not my primary residence of party got lenders are offering you money at two point I have percent. So there's no inability to finance the debt. Well what's the problem and autonomy is what's called a lack of aggregate demand. Since 2000. The population has been going approximately six times faster than jobs. And the media away half of workers make more half of workers make what. The median wage -- since. Stock at a little over 500 dollars a week that's below 26000 a year in real terms is just the complexion. Since 1999. So that's the real problem is we don't have job growth we don't have incomes growth. What we do have a unbelievable explosion of profits profits are at record high level they're growing like crazy because. -- hand relative handful corporation's 2600. Of the six -- corporations in America. Are making a -- profits but there's no demand that would cause them to invest in new factories and research -- equipment. -- efficient to use up those profits and invest them so they can even more profits in the future so they are stopping them mostly into actual bank accounts. Where the money is on tax. David cay Johnston is here 8030930s. Number will be going to phone calls in just second. David is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter used -- taxes for the New York Times. Is also the author of the book called. Three launch on the wealthiest Americans enrich themselves at government expense and stick you with the bill. We'll get to that we'll get taxes and just second a -- a couple of something you just said don't you basically laid this. This crisis at the feet of the Tea Party. Don't those people represented sincere folks who believe we are spending too much. I believe I I think one of the biggest mistakes that the Democrats have made is he's just demonizing people with Tea Party. What that what the Tea Party people believe it has no basis in reality but that doesn't mean they don't necessarily believe. But they are as misguided as people who believe that but we do one time the earth was flat never dragons -- familiar edges of the ocean. So you don't think we need to cut spending. No actually I don't right now we should be doing is increasing spending and let me explain something very basic everybody whoever took economic should've learned. And that's called accounting identities. You know -- -- -- -- based -- larger two plus two was always equal four right. Well spending equal income. Income -- spending but now it's spending which is composed of spending by individuals by businesses by nonprofits by government. Is spending goes down. Because the corporate sector laid people off. And cuts wages which is what we've seen happen. Then income Moscow now unless the government makes up for with more government spending. If the government makes up for it in the short on them were better off when the economy is booming. That's when government should be cutting back unfortunately the history of our politicians in both parties is. That when government proving they wanna spend even more to -- smallest tax money coming yet. And we need to recognize that. Counting identities. Are fundamental. There understood by virtue people in another -- every economics course that's any good. And and in addition. Remember that all private well. All gains in the private sector are broke -- foundation and our common well. Take away roads and air traffic control and all of taxpayer investment the bubble allowed us to build. Jet airplanes which grew out of military researcher. And guess what. A lot of our economy would triple like. It's been estimated that a third of our economy grows out of fundamental resurgent physics which gives us. Cell phones and the algorithms that computers use. That's our public spending. Education would take. -- formed small mind a little behind me children not. And AM with the rigor produces people who can add value. That is an investment. And so it's it's crucial to remember that we need to invest and it doesn't support our government spending we do a lot -- incredibly stupid spending. But we need to be doing that spending which facilitate commerce which is research basically search. Education. And most especially infrastructure we have been using up our roads -- and now all our bridges our pipelines. Will -- disastrous results as we've seen around the country with people dying in the number of our utterly unnecessary accidents. We are going to see more bridge collapse is more dam collapses we're gonna seek cover get less efficient because of bad road but we're not investing. All right now know what about the argument I heard -- said about spending but. Educate me here if we are spending less. We can therefore tax less if we are testing less there is more money out there in the economy. Being spread around to help young things grow like fertilized. Part of your pit the last part of your assumption -- -- Cap and here's why -- You can actually be better off and have more money in your pocket by paying higher taxes mantra -- look there's going that's crazy it will be fewer real life example within my current book the fine print. In my neighborhood in Rochester we voted to raise our taxes. To -- pork. Refuse collection. Instead of having each person on the street a body separately retail so there every day of the week about smelly garbage truck came down the street now. There's a bidding contest the low bidder gets every house on the street they come one day a week. And we may we we it was so much in less expensive to do that but for every dollar additional taxes that I pay I have a dollar and eighty cents more cash in my pocket. Because we cut our costs by post to order. Many things government does increase efficiency and even the best example what's gone all of our economy. For every dollar per person in what are called purchasing thirty dollars doesn't really comparable to American -- That the other 33 modern economies of the world expand on their universal health care systems. America spends -- ten dollars and sixty ports. Two dollars and 60% to one dollar and they have universal coverage we got fifty million people no coverage of the thirty million people with minimal scupper. A partial cup. Now if we just lower the cost of our health care in the year 2010. To what the French -- and -- -- like the third or fourth most expensive country in the world and their system is widely regarded as the best in the if we just lower cost at the expense of the -- spam. We would have been able to eliminate that year the individual income tax all else being people. That cost of the US health care system equal. What we cannot become what we paid out income taxes in 2010. And about two thirds or paying out income taxes that will pay up this year. I wanna go back -- -- earlier example though. Are there enough garbage contracts of the kind that you described. That week and then generalize and say higher taxes means more money yes maybe in that one case but overall. Depends on what -- spending that money on. -- -- if we can spend money in stupid ways that do not add value and we can spend money in small ways that won't make us wealthier. Our competitors are economic competitors. All seem to understand this. The Germans are heavily unionized up to executives belonging to unions. All of our economic competitors are heavily unionized. We are not all over economic competitors have. Close to three higher education that you're really good student. -- without really valuable mind education screaming to the country as it was in America when I was a young -- It's not anymore we turn education into a business that. Many many people are not getting an education and many who are half. Have to work and therefore are studying fulltime. I teach at -- university in the graduate school business from the law school. My very best students of the ones who come from Korea and Japan and who were paid by the government and have full time just study. And have been selected through rigorous competition. All right are really -- break on the other side here we are saying about spending in certain areas are delve into that further. Ross said that the government does a lot of stupid spending let's get to that next its hardline on news radio 9:30 AM one of seven point seven FM WB. It's hard line on news radio 9:30 AM and 107 point seven FM WB and David cay Johnston is here is a columnist with tax analysts and Columbia Journalism Review visiting professor at the Syracuse university law school. He's also president of investigative reporters and -- Pulitzer Prize winning tax writer with the new York times of one point in his life a guy that basically kicks around money issues for a living. And is looking at the sequestration coming down the pike at the end of the month. Before the productivity said two things we will be getting calls who by the way 8030930. -- and trying to squeeze one in May be for the news break in the bottom but I don't want to what. Do that and not do the caller complete justice so let's just take a quick moment first and talk about two things he said before the news break. That we don't spend right. And that there is a lot of stupid spending out there what kind of priorities do you wanna see the government spend on and what kind of things that we doing that we actually just certain. Well I think the preamble would constitutions are tied for that yet -- -- the six noble purposes of our government. The establish justice common defense domestic tranquility. Securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. I'm promoting the general welfare in the capital W the original for the but to five of the next week. So we should be spending money on scientific research because there's no business in incentives for businesses to do basic research. We've been cutting and cutting and cutting we're finding any tiny portion. Our border raided the grade a medical research and some of our best medical researchers have left the United States to go to China or India to work. Because those governments especially China are pouring money. -- to research particularly. Biological research. We should be spending money on our infrastructure because business needs infrastructure. We have been consuming. Our infrastructure of the civil engineering society year after year -- agreed appeared deep plots to our infrastructure. It's only a matter of time to we have a repeat of the Johnstown flood. We've had precursor warnings of this like the collapse of the highway in. The Minnesota and shut down -- bridge that connects to Indiana to Kentucky and others. While we should be spending money on high on education especially higher education. -- and we need to be spending money at a minimum income program. Because that's the -- one of the reasons we have so much violence in America and you don't see -- same Canada country very much like the US in many ways. You don't -- Europe. Is because we don't have this pervasive. A lack of incomes and lack of opportunity. That discourages striped thing in our society. We are late for our break gonna take them now on the other side we'll pick up couple phone calls for you as well. David cay Johnston is here it's time line on news radio 9:30 AM and one of seven point seven FM REB yen. It's hard line on news radio 9:30 AM 107 point seven FM WB and this hour for the balance of it tells twelve -- we are talking about sequestration those automatic budget cuts. That kicked in at the federal level on Friday analysts -- -- deal between now and then. By the way coming up at twelve -- Meet the Press does much the same from a bit different perspective. David cay Johnston is here. And David just for folks that might be just joining us quick recap of the -- -- and then when asked about spending and we'll take calls -- console get to those. How did you get into all of this how did you start analyzing numbers what's your background. Well I. Became a reporter about seventeen years old and I was a reporter one of the biggest newspaper in the country staff writer at nineteen the -- Mercury. And I started out writing about abuses of taxpayers. And back that'll work from a weekly paper and reporter at the local paper told me this. Skip -- to stop doing these. And all of these little people work. Some in the sixties with a one even pocket calculators were I would simply certainly boring city councilmen and analyze the budget write stories about the -- -- school board budget things like that that got a lot of attention. Conceded that the match. And their. As I spent my entire career do I'm investigating altered things on the guy who changed the reputation of the LAPD by showing -- at a map of political spying operation. -- I've been credited by congress was saving taxpayers more than 250. Million dollars. And I'm widely and it is still quite lectured the schools as the detective chief tax enforcement officer of the US because of all the tax dodges and -- -- But I exposed a lot of the times which led that prosecution and civil cases and in some cases very long prisons. And it led to a Pulitzer for you as well now tell me about spending just to folks are joining us late. Hey you feel the government spends too much but -- these cuts that come down automatically are mad crazy in your book Greg. Well I wouldn't pentagon spent too much bad that I mean I a year we can make decisions about how we wanna -- -- -- bumping. But these -- even Orrin hatch and John Boehner had that are stupid cut. They were put in place in the theory that nobody would do something this stupid. And allowed us to take place. That there are lots of places we can cut government spending but we have a much higher rate of food borne illness in America than -- than in Europe or Canada or Japan but we're gonna cut food inspectors. Companies that are in the -- business cannot take me out of their factories across state lines if there are no meat inspectors were gonna start -- A lot of -- Inspectors there traffic controllers were gonna light goes -- politically means delays or is one of the epic its business travel Kevin Mitchell put it. It's going to be like a bad weather day every day be putting people into -- year. With the economy. And the fact there's the president has repeatedly. Let's discuss how to put in -- He's willing to take one point two trillion dollars in cuts over a period of time. But he indeed John Boehner is unable to get the Tea Party members of the house to -- long. And he's not gonna preside or were well -- yet to moderate Republicans and Democrats to. -- some other deals so I suspect this will take effect on Friday. John in Rochester kicking off for -- 8030930s number you dialed in Europe first. Eight David. Both statements are -- you know. I editorial I lost some credibility when you insinuated itself. Predator Obama due to fiscal conservative. And assert certain areas of the budget and in a major apology actually. What what are your president four last four out of -- years he's been late presiding bullet hits and I think we want without a budget for four years. I think John who -- currently lack credibility. Kind of madness bunch of facts that we -- of the market. First of all there -- no constitutional requirement for budget we didn't have a budget country to about a hundred years ago. -- -- you wouldn't recruit and frustration. With the public. Can't we also -- eloquent about what -- budget you can go on the Internet and read. The president proposed budget it has been put out every year it's a thousand pages Blair who wrote it down you act. I have zero -- that happened have happen and I finished. Tom the president he is the executive there's a reason he's an article two of the constitution. And congress is an article -- That congress has not passed a budget. The Republicans have passed some budgetary matters that they know the senate will not accept but -- as we used to approved paying state. Consider unacceptable particularly important in given what happened the last election. Which was clearly an election about. Taxes in the middle class. And they've been on won't do so that's a breakdown in congress to deal. Restriction and I'm -- -- Barack Obama I was the first National Journal. To attend the pieces and it was nine days after he took up. I was heavily criticized by people on the left and right. Who -- and said gee I was exactly right what I read about. The the that the president has put forth a budget every year and budgets shall shrinking deficit. Over time and significant cuts in domestic. Spending. Sure he got over to look at this as this thinking David Letterman and you're strong. David is the shrinking deficit is the shrinking deficit because of cuts to spending. Or is it because of increase in revenue or is it because of -- It's because about it's because of the factors. The president has agreed to open one point two trillion dollars and cut -- reason -- one point eight he's come back. That you cannot be -- He agreed to one point two trillion dollars and perhaps he snapped about one point eight that's the difference but we're talking about here over time we supposed to we're not what it well. Oh deficit that supposedly intent here is going to be 26 -- -- We did our tour that -- -- -- you're confusing the deficit and the -- those are two different. Things. The deficit and the debt are two different things okay. That deficit is getting smaller but we have allowed the bush tax cuts to expire remember they were only temporary -- they were -- for ten years. We would be on our way to a balanced budget. You remember that after we raised taxes in the Clinton administration we had a balanced budget for two year. We will not have to balance budgets until we got in the bush tax cuts and -- Brutal war in Iraq which we now know was based on complete sense good. That they you can go on the Internet to present. The bush saying more after the war of course Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with nine elevenths. So that was sort of a complete also there were no weapons of mass destruction let me ask for political reasons and economic -- those two big factors. Which of those two has President Obama done more raise taxes or cut spending. -- -- -- Cup semi pro Obama presided over the largest middle class tax recent history don't know -- any cut in history almost no one knows that. It was called the making work pay tax credit which would in effect for the first two years 20092010. The top 10% of taxpayers were denied it. Bottom 98% tax payers can't it was. 400 dollars for a person few hundred per couple -- Over two years it was 16100 dollars. And when you read the -- that was the biggest passed tax cut we've ever had. Obama is -- means that if we look back in time to look to the Obama. In an -- about the past you know Ronald Reagan policies -- would be seen as very liberal Richard Nixon would be seen as somewhat awkward Dennis Kucinich it is. And Obama is -- on the spectrum of things. I would describe him they liberal Republican norm moderate Democrats. All right Tim in Lancaster c'mon man. I -- are doing. Great things I didn't even -- I. I think I thought it was interest in Dave when -- center for so I want -- mention a couple of things I agree with Cuba. I think -- he infrastructures spending I think the scientific research I think all of those things that are important. I also think that you talked about the -- tranquility that thinks ideologically or technical things are correct but. I think what are you up and I'm gonna go back to the previous caller where he definitely -- credibility with me was for your characterization of Obama and spending. I think that would you agree that the deficit climbed from somewhere. That -- And -- we get -- out and I don't doubt about it first is that OK but would you agree right now. That the approximately nine to ten trillion dollar deficit under Obama. Had grown to sixteen to nearly seventeen trillion dollars and now. And I have absolutely there's some will question. That's the definition has grown but how interesting that interest rates the program with -- keep filing. As the debt has grown and why did the debt -- what happened that made the debt -- that's the question you don't have to ask. It was Obama spending policy the -- -- Well here couple facts. A hundred years George Bush was in the White House total income -- By three point seven trillion dollars compared to 2000 you adjust for inflation and population growth. He got a -- that common read my column a all the charts and data the children's. They continued to -- and are continuing to fall under President Obama. All the increase in com in America in 2011. Compared 2009 which is on the recession -- 149%. Of the growth went to the top 10% that means that the bottom 90%. Sure but -- comply trumps even more that means they pay less taxes that means the government has less revenue. And it means demand for services a lot of those people out of work go up. Which pushes up the cost of government. The way out at 39 cents of every dollar increased income the -- two year period. Went to 161000. Households the very top and that's because our government policies are re distributing in commonwealth awkward. In ways that you seldom hear politicians talk about that I'd written three books explaining. Perfectly tangle free -- and the fine print. OK so from an economic perspective means that at one point that any economic course -- any good. This is it -- well for you would indicate that the government actually should now be spending more money. Not -- that's -- Number it. Remember a time when you don't -- -- and an iron to -- -- -- much you can know I IE I ask one question and you got to it to the top of your talking points. And then answered that and you're gonna go up again. So are you telling me. That's from an economic perspective. That growing deficit from ten trillion dollars to seventeen trillion dollars. And then actually are or who are you watching what's going on in Europe are you paying attention to Greece and Spain how with -- that government. -- is wrong it's deficit by 60%. In the last forty years as a non trek to grow even greater. It didn't look like you're definitely not only to see some more left in Britain than here why you're watching what's going on in Europe can give a little bit when one person blocked it is -- -- let's remember -- The debt problem during the bush years okay. If you're not gonna be that -- quickly we can keep that apportion blame bush. Don't let emotion that you yeah. Who you're -- over eight years. Next trillion more over the last four years and -- -- And -- economic ideology is that we should be spending their money. When you were sent him and in their outlook and that and yet how many. -- The economy so let me read -- white person I agree -- totally irrelevant to -- It's the Greeks were not part of the Euro zone if they had their own currency. And if they had a real tax system we have a real tax system in America -- don't agree wouldn't be in the trouble apparently not a relevant example. Spain is in terrible trouble could have balanced budgets. And then everything collapsed. Speaker of the Spanish we're in the same situation we were of this huge product -- unproductive investment leveraged with debt in house. So those are not good example contracted Germans are doing just fine right now compared that to us and some. And it's him England and Ireland for example -- austerity measures would put him. We're seeing that things are not working no I'm not paper of the bigger federal that in the program governments need to let me as much as -- as they. Spent we need to be close to a balanced budget. Getting it right on the nose is almost impossible but we should not be running these enormous deficit. And -- hand outlets. Content and unless the economy is. Unless the economy is doing great then it's not that I -- exactly all right. Let's leave it there for a quick second take a break on the other side more phone calls David cay Johnston is here -- the numbers 8030930. These attacks analyst he's a writer he's commentator. We've got more straight ahead it's heartland is ready at 9:30 AM and one of seven point seven FM WB. Hardline on his radio 9:30 AM 107 point seven FM stuff. Good morning this -- -- Meet the Press comes your way twelve noon about when we got 45 more minutes. -- David cay Johnston let's bring in David from Laporte or had your question form. We got three days now yeah boy it's confusing like this sum -- what I've heard so far from him. It just just a very just one sentence or two from speechwriter for Reagan the other day paraphrase. He said our friends on the left. They're not hinder it is just dead most of what they think they know is wrong. And I checked and he's thirteen in the central government big spending. What if I step and that is what is -- he said he's a professor I get up and walked out. Ever so much garbage in my life. Instead of just instead of -- name calling it got a hold on David government document did David hold on just quick second. And stick well both of the and instead of just saying it's garbage out you give me something you can refute or -- back I. Until -- don't want it talks about investing in our infrastructure. The biggest crime is dead in the history of the universe. That nobody's talking about was pulled off a couple years ago when Obama took almost a trillion dollars so shovel ready job Monday. And stole a little all the sports quotes in the game but the Democrats staged the shore up the teacher and the public service unions retirement pensions. At any talks about. The government spending money to create things first signs will they -- that when he broke real businesses that really created something. They hate that money before the government can do anything -- it. And I make site and are caught in the middle so much of fat rear ended bureaucrats can sit around and they give it to her friends. And then the plan. They might create something but that's another private industry it wasn't that government wasn't government bureaucrat that -- all these. All the technology that we got from the space. Yeah program this is reject. All right not now give me a specific question -- -- can answer. That that how how come when JFK and Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. Cut tax rates the government got more money. What you keynesian think the only way to find your projects is to raise taxes which shut down that you kind of get -- every dime that's like. That's I don't know how would it help. Yeah that's the diplomatic and let me let me answer your point okay. Please go to attacks dot com click on my name go down to through the listing you'll see an article where I document. That well you have to revenues went up when Ronald Reagan cut taxes and Lyndon Johnson implemented John Kennedy's tax cut. Revenues Outback Bowl under George W. Bush started income tax revenues did not go out and you'll see them analyzed. Three different ways to show that this is one of the big ride the Fox News is about talent. Revenues fell 36%. Per capita adjusted for inflation in the federal income tax. Under George W. Bush and total revenues -- and you'll see that now if you don't deal with facts if you don't know that the president's budget. Showed -- 57%. Reduction in the budget deficit over the years he will be an office. Then you know you tend to believe the kinds of things that you people believe. I'm by the way the space program with the government program with government employees and it brought us everything from cap -- to work. Instant packets of Orange juice and huge advances in computers. All funded with taxpayer money because basic research is not generally funded by this is the only large basic research ever funded by business in America. Was AT&T bell labs when they were a monopoly and arguably a proxy for government. We've spent so much of the program talking about what you think should happen let's talk about what you think will happen. Friday to the cuts kick -- I -- I think the we're going to see these -- to take place I think there are indicative of how. Art gerrymandering of districts so that we got people who are. Very Liberal Democrats or very conservative Republicans rather -- middle of the -- voters who -- interest in the long trouble for the country. Is really causing serious problems and also. How the campaign finance. The system is causing problems you know serious conservatives like William Rehnquist -- warned us. Do not give political rights to corporations. And read about it in court decisions. My book the fine print talks about this it's somewhat. Property rights for corporations absolutely political rights no and it's distorting our political process it's why. For the last 25 years always -- an incumbent on the top it's why in 2011. 39 cents out of every dollar that all 300 plus million Americans got. Went to just 161000. Household. OK so. I got a moving along we're almost out here. Cuts kick in on Friday the economy therefore tanks is that we've sent. Think tank -- didn't quite right first of many government employees are in unions -- -- work rules without unions that will delay these cuts still may be April. -- little later but you're going to see disruptions in air travel. You're going to be far less criminal enforceable law the FBI -- happily off about a thousand agents effectively through furloughs. You're going to be longer delay is coming through customs and Border Patrol. And these things will make business -- Efficient now. I could certainly argue we don't may not need to have as many inspections is we have various things. But that's a different policy that -- -- beat -- approach. In additional large part of the type both are on the military. We spent 41% of all military spending in the world pursuing doctrines they thinker out dated we pay for 71 nuclear submarines for example to beat. In service. What in the world -- our enemies are non state actors who can Harry out. But they can't take over any of -- real estate. David so we needed to -- got to leave it there we are out of time off to Washington and Meet the Press.